Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

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  • #16
    Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

    This reminds me of the Socko-Foisor case - King and Knight vs. King and Knight - ruled a win.

    http://rules.chessdom.com/appeals-co...e-socko-foisor

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    • #17
      Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

      We also must remember the Chesscafe is USCF, whereby they have a tendency to have their own rules on things.

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      • #18
        Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

        Originally posted by Tony Boron View Post
        This reminds me of the Socko-Foisor case - King and Knight vs. King and Knight - ruled a win.

        http://rules.chessdom.com/appeals-co...e-socko-foisor
        This is similar, but different, in that white's flag didn't fall. Instead he claimed a draw by article 10.

        D. Quickplay finishes where no arbiter is present in the venue
        D.1 Where games are played as in Article 10, a player may claim a draw when he has less than
        two minutes left on his clock and before his flag falls. This concludes the game.
        He may claim on the basis:
        a. that his opponent cannot win by normal means, and/or
        b. that his opponent has been making no effort to win by normal means.
        In a) the player must write down the final position and his opponent verify it.
        In b) the player must write down the final position and submit an up to date scoresheet. The
        opponent shall verify both the scoresheet and the final position.
        The claim shall be referred to an arbiter whose decision shall be final.

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        • #19
          Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

          I don't buy it. Give the player a draw. Its the right thing to do.

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          • #20
            Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

            I believe this should be a win for the side with the bishop.

            (I once ran out of time with a K and P against a K and B, and was declared lost, many years ago at a FIDE tournament)

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            • #21
              Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

              Originally posted by Denton Cockburn View Post
              We also must remember the Chesscafe is USCF, whereby they have a tendency to have their own rules on things.
              The arbiter in question Geurt Gijssen is a European FIDE arbiter and not a USCF arbiter.

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              • #22
                Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

                Originally posted by Tony Boron View Post
                This reminds me of the Socko-Foisor case - King and Knight vs. King and Knight - ruled a win.

                http://rules.chessdom.com/appeals-co...e-socko-foisor
                That appears to be quite relevant to this case. If the rules have not changed since 2008 then the correct decision is that it is a time forfeit.

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                • #23
                  Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

                  Originally posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post
                  The claim is approved by an arbiter, not a player. As I understand there was no draw offer.
                  It was the player that claimed the draw.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

                    I know we're not USCF, but this is also similar:

                    USCF 14E indicates that the game is drawn when a player exceeds the time limit if one of the following conditions exists. Opponent has only a lone K (14E1), Opponent has only K and B or K and N and does not have a forced win (14E2), Opponent has only K and 2 Ns, the player has no pawns, and the opponent does not have a forced win. (14E3).

                    I don't find the Socko-Foiser situation to be that similar.

                    1) In that game, the flag fell and the player didn't try to claim a draw by rule 10 before it did.
                    2) In that game, there was a possible mate on the next move, which the player could have unwittingly played into.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

                      The USCF rules are quite different and not relevant. CFC and FIDE rules are the only rules that are relevant to this situation.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

                        Vlad, this is probably the rule which applies.

                        6.9
                        Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves.

                        So, by legal moves can white put himself into a position where black can mate? That seems the test for a win by black.
                        Gary Ruben
                        CC - IA and SIM

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                        • #27
                          Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

                          FIDE laws which may be relevant to this case

                          9.4
                          If the player touches a piece as in Article 4.3 without having claimed the draw he loses the right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move.



                          9.5
                          If a player claims a draw as in Article 9.2 or 9.3 he may stop both clocks. (See Article 6.12.b) He is not allowed to withdraw his claim.

                          a.
                          If the claim is found to be correct, the game is immediately drawn.

                          b.
                          If the claim is found to be incorrect, the arbiter shall add three minutes to the opponent’s remaining thinking time. Then the game shall continue. If the claim was based on an intended move, this move must be made as according to Article 4.

                          9.6
                          The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position was legal.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

                            Originally posted by Gary Ruben View Post
                            Vlad, this is probably the rule which applies.

                            6.9
                            Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves.

                            So, by legal moves can white put himself into a position where black can mate? That seems the test for a win by black.
                            Yes. He can move his king to either h8 or a1 in which case it is possible that black could checkmate him with the combined efforts of the king and bishop.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

                              Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
                              Yes. He can move his king to either h8 or a1 in which case it is possible that black could checkmate him with the combined efforts of the king and bishop.
                              What was the result? Did you get your win?
                              Gary Ruben
                              CC - IA and SIM

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

                                Originally posted by Gary Ruben View Post
                                Vlad, this is probably the rule which applies.

                                6.9
                                Except where one of the Articles: 5.1.a, 5.1.b, 5.2.a, 5.2.b, 5.2.c applies, if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves.

                                So, by legal moves can white put himself into a position where black can mate? That seems the test for a win by black.
                                But FIDE also listed rule 10, which deals specifically with sudden death time controls.

                                The point (and spirit) is that a player can claim a draw with less than 2 minutes if they can show that their opponent cannot win by normal means. This DOES NOT mean it's impossible for the opponent to win. Under normal circumstances, no one here would try to make the argument that Vlad could win with his K+B given the location of the white king. White would have to intentionally march his king to 1 of 2 mating squares, then ensure that his pawns are played such that the mate is possible.

                                Note that the pieces that Vlad has left is important in my view. K+R vs K+8 pawns is a clear win for him to me.

                                Denton

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