Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

FIDE laws which may be relevant to this case

9.4
If the player touches a piece as in Article 4.3 without having claimed the draw he loses the right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move.



9.5
If a player claims a draw as in Article 9.2 or 9.3 he may stop both clocks. (See Article 6.12.b) He is not allowed to withdraw his claim.

a.
If the claim is found to be correct, the game is immediately drawn.

b.
If the claim is found to be incorrect, the arbiter shall add three minutes to the opponent’s remaining thinking time. Then the game shall continue. If the claim was based on an intended move, this move must be made as according to Article 4.

9.6
The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position was legal.

You need to include Law 10, which is what he's using to claim the draw.


Article 10: Quickplay Finish
10.1
A ‘quickplay finish’ is the phase of a game when all the (remaining) moves must be made in a limited time.
10.2
If the player, having the move, has less than two minutes left on his clock, he may claim a draw before his flag falls. He shall summon the arbiter and may stop the clocks. (See Article 6.12.b)

a.
If the arbiter agrees the opponent is making no effort to win the game by normal means, or that it is not possible to win by normal means, then he shall declare the game drawn. Otherwise he shall postpone his decision or reject the claim.

b.
If the arbiter postpones his decision, the opponent may be awarded two extra minutes and the game shall continue, if possible in the presence of an arbiter. The arbiter shall declare the final result later in the game or as soon as possible after a flag has fallen. He shall declare the game drawn if he agrees that the final position cannot be won by normal means, or that the opponent was not making sufficient attempts to win by normal means.

c.
If the arbiter has rejected the claim, the opponent shall be awarded two extra minutes time.

d.
The decision of the arbiter shall be final relating to (a), (b) and (c).

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

We also must remember the Chesscafe is USCF, whereby they have a tendency to have their own rules on things.

The mentioned chesscafe answers (more like interpretations by Geurt Gijssen) are based on FIDE rules.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

It was the player that claimed the draw.

"a player >> an opponent.
The claim is approved by an arbiter, not an opponent. As I understand there was no draw offer.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

What was the result? Did you get your win?

We agreed to research the relevant rules before coming to a decision. It is an informal CFC rated event being played in each other's homes. It is not the end of the world if we decide that it is a draw but I do want the result to be the correct one based on the rules correctly applied. It is the first game of the newest go round of a double round robin. Round two with switched colours is scheduled for Monday between the same players.

We did seemingly permanently lose one player because of a similar disagreement in a local tournament though this current situation does not arise to the level of a disagreement. If the CFC website hadn't been down we would have come to a decision today based on the handbook.

I am playing way too much lately and really have to stop playing so much. Maybe 2012 will be the year that I finally cut back to 80 games for the year as I keep promising myself I will. On the bright side I seem to have a horseshoe somewhere. On the not so bright side is I play really badly on occasion - like today.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

But FIDE also listed rule 10, which deals specifically with sudden death time controls.

Who was the arbiter and what did he decide with the flag down?

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

"a player >> an opponent.
The claim is approved by an arbiter, not an opponent. As I understand there was no draw offer.

The player claimed a draw under rule 10. That is to be presented to the arbiter for a decision.
Denton

[John Upper]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

Does FIDE define "normal means" or give some examples of it in their rulebook or in their IA training?

I tried to find an aswer to this a couple of years ago, and AFAIK, they don't.

(this might even be one of the rare cases where FIDE has chosen wisely, since allowing TDs and arbiters to interpret "normal means" gives them some flexibility to create a just result... though if the arbiters or TDs are corrupt it gives them more leeway for that too.)

FWIW, the problem that generated this thread is another good reason to play events only with incremental TCs.

[Stephen Wright]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

I would say White lost on time - whatever the merits of the draw claim it was made illegally (White had already moved and therefore would not be able to claim at that point).

Question: what was the time control? And was an arbiter present at the end of the game?

BTW, insufficient losing chances is a U.S. concept, it doesn't exist under FIDE (and thus Canadian) rules.

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

Who was the arbiter and what did he decide with the flag down?

The official arbiter of the league is me. The thing is I mainly just take the result from the players since I'm not usually present.

Another note: FIDE has rules for when there is no arbiter present. It's pretty much the same thing, just that they will show the position to an arbiter.

Also note: The flag did not fall. He claimed with his flag about to fall.

Also, as Vlad said, we've had a bad incident with this before. This was why I even learned of the quickplay rules. After I learned of them, I apologized to the player, because I believe that that position should have a valid claim (K+R+P vs K+R, with the pawn unable to be kept). My view of this game is that the claim is even more clear in this one.

Denton

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

I would say White lost on time - whatever the merits of the draw claim it was made illegally (White had already moved and therefore would not be able to claim at that point).

Question: what was the time control? And was an arbiter present at the end of the game?

BTW, insufficient losing chances is a U.S. concept, it doesn't exist under FIDE (and thus Canadian) rules.

White still had 1 sec, so his flag hadn't fallen yet. That means he'd be able to claim as soon as black touches the clock. This is therefore not a meaningful violation of the rule.

The time control is G/60. FIDE doesn't require an arbiter to be present, just that the situation can be presented to an agreed arbiter.

Denton

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

The other player has stated that the decision is Vlad's. Therefore Vlad decides whether it's a win or draw and I'll record it as he decides.

The rest of this thread is then to clarify for future reference.
I think the "normal means" statement leaves the arbiter significant leeway. Thus in the future, whatever the arbiter decides, either way, is correct :)

Denton

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

You need to include Law 10, which is what he's using to claim the draw.


Article 10: Quickplay Finish
10.1
A ‘quickplay finish’ is the phase of a game when all the (remaining) moves must be made in a limited time.
10.2
If the player, having the move, has less than two minutes left on his clock, he may claim a draw before his flag falls. He shall summon the arbiter and may stop the clocks. (See Article 6.12.b)

a.
If the arbiter agrees the opponent is making no effort to win the game by normal means, or that it is not possible to win by normal means, then he shall declare the game drawn. Otherwise he shall postpone his decision or reject the claim.

b.
If the arbiter postpones his decision, the opponent may be awarded two extra minutes and the game shall continue, if possible in the presence of an arbiter. The arbiter shall declare the final result later in the game or as soon as possible after a flag has fallen. He shall declare the game drawn if he agrees that the final position cannot be won by normal means, or that the opponent was not making sufficient attempts to win by normal means.

c.
If the arbiter has rejected the claim, the opponent shall be awarded two extra minutes time.

d.
The decision of the arbiter shall be final relating to (a), (b) and (c).

10.2
If the player, having the move, has less than two minutes left on his clock, he may claim a draw before his flag falls. He shall summon the arbiter and may stop the clocks.

According 10.2 which you seem to me to be misinterpreting according to the highlighted text you can't claim a draw AFTER making your move as happened here or even just after touching a piece. You can also only claim a draw before your flag has fallen under a special set of circumstances which do not apply here.

I think that as long as there is a legal mate possible on the board you can't claim a draw by insufficient mating material which was the actual claim made during the game.

You are also misinterpreting the decision in the following case. The arbiter's decision was based on his incorrect interpretation that because the player that lost on time would have to move the king and knight and cooperate with the opponent to set up a mate that the game should therefore be a draw. This was overturned by the appeals committee. Presumably the decision of the appeals committee represents the correct FIDE ruling. Although it is totally ridiculous and tricky to set up a king and knight vs king and knight mate it is still within the realm of the possible which caused the appeal decision to overrule the arbiter and uphold the time forfeit.

http://rules.chessdom.com/appeals-co...e-socko-foisor

[Stephen Wright]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

I quote Vlad from a previous post: "he made his move claimed draw and his flag fell before he pressed the clock." White made a move, then claimed the draw, then his flag fell. According to Article 10.2 the draw can only be claimed when the player has the move, but in this case White had already made his move. Thus he cannot legitimately claim the draw until it his move again, but the flag fall has already ended the game.

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

The Socko case was about FIDE Law 9.

This one is about Law 10. I would think in the Socko case the loser would have loved to have rule 10 available.

Reading the decision as well, the judges took into account that a mate was possible on the next move. edit: It wasn't the next move, but possible at all.

The point I'm making is that Law 9 really has nothing to do with this. Law 10 is the only one that counts. If Law 10 referred to any other laws, then they could be factored in.

Denton

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Sudden death draw claim CFC rules??????

Also note: The flag did not fall. He claimed with his flag about to fall.

Basically, we have a situation where white could no longer win in the remaining time BUT if there were more time there was enough material for him to blunder into a mate and there is enough white mating material to continue the game if black had claimed a draw.

Ask and OTB IA for an opinion.

By the way, if white had claimed a draw with a full minute and a half remaining would he have received the draw without black agreeing?