Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

[Mikhail Egorov]

Hello everyone,

I am here to bring an issue with 2011 WYCC participation in Brazil. This is concerning special case -> top kids who are not allowed to represent Canada in WYCC this year in Brazil.

Players:
WCM Jackie Peng (top girl U14 in Canada)
WCM Jiaxin (Dora) Lui (top girl U10 in Canada)
Dezheng Kong (to boy U12 in Canada)

WCM Jackie Peng and Dezheng Kong did not register to join Canadian team in WYCC this year. WCM Jaxin (Dora) Liu tried, but got declined by CFC to join WYCC team.
WHY?

The problem started, when Pan-American Chess organizers scheduled their tournament on same dates as 2011 CYCC in Richmond Hill. As a result fowling players decided to go and represent their country at Pan-American games: WCM Jackie Peng, WCM Jiaxin (Dora) Liu and Dezheng Kong. All of them are top juniors in their respective groups in Canada.

All 3 of them decided to participate in Pan-American games and make Canada proud in Columbia. :D

The reason why they decided to join Pan-American team is because CFC had following rules in place at that time.

Rules
Regarding participation in the WYCC:
3 ways that a player can participate with the Canadian team at the
WYCC:
1) win a spot by qualifying at the CYCC with a top 3 position result in
their section.
2) Apply to the CFC for a spot as a player that competed in the CYCC but
did not qualify with an additional fee of $150
3) Participate as the Canadian Player that holds the top rating for their
section, regardless as to whether they played in the CYCC or not.

Please note rule #3. This rule allows them to participate in WYCC as extra players. The only catch is they have to pay their own expenses, if they decide to join WYCC team. (extra players are: did not play in CYCC and qualify the official way)

The only player, who expressed to join WYCC team this year. is WCM Jiaxin (Dora) Liu, as an extra player. Extra player must pay his/her own expenses. This means CFC will not have to spend a dime, only allow them to join WYCC team. She recently received her title from FIDE for her 2009 accomplishment in North American Chess Championship in Mexico.
She also is a senior this year and this is her best chance to win WYCC championship, especially with addition of her new title.

I am very puzzled why CFC is refusing her to play in WYCC this year. Please correct me, if I am wrong. Is it in CFC best interest to send in strongest competitors to WYCC and represent CANADA at World's stage?

My point is : Why should I our top juniors suffer, because of scheduled conflict between Pan-American and CYCC tournaments? Out top juniors are the ones who are suffering from this. This is wrong!

FIDE has a rule in place for cases like this:
2.4 - Any federation can register extra players
Link: http://011.com/en/regulations/genreg...=4&hl=en&ct=cl

This is special case. If, both tournaments were scheduled in different times, we would not have this problem at this time. Is it sad that CFC does not want to see it in any other way. The questions I ask: Why should I top juniors be victims?

CFC case is - they are not allowed to go, because they did not play in CFC
(end of discussion). :(

How could they play in both tournaments?
Can you really blame them for choosing Pan-American games and represent their country, since they are top players in their age group?

We are looking for your support in this case, and allow extra players to participate in WYCC. FIDE already allows extra players to participate.

Mikhail
2011 Official Delegate f team Canada in Pan-American Chess games in Columbia
Hamilton Chess Club Secretary

[Andrei Botez]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

As fas as I know, the top player CAN go to WYCC with out playing in CYCC. This is based on the Bruce Harper motion. Valentina Gautor was the first case to go to WYCC using this motion.

Andrei

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

Hello everyone,

I am here to bring an issue with 2011 WYCC participation in Brazil. This is concerning special case -> top kids who are not allowed to represent Canada in WYCC this year in Brazil.

...etc

Mikhail
2011 Official Delegate f team Canada in Pan-American Chess games in Columbia
Hamilton Chess Club Secretary

Mikhail, I think this post should be on the CFC Forum (at least it should be there as well...) I don't know which forum is "the correct" place, but it should appear on the CFC forum since it is directly related to CFC matters, not just chess in general. (of course, I realize that many more people seem to check out Chesstalk than the CFC forum...)

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

As fas as I know, the top player CAN go to WYCC with out playing in CYCC. This is based on the Bruce Harper motion. Valentina Gautor was the first case to go to WYCC using this motion.

Andrei

Hi Andrei,

Thank you for your input. Yes, you are absolutely correct. Bruce Harper motion should be used!

However, CFC has new rule in place that was done recently and not everyone is aware of it. So why was the rule changed….

The problem started, when Pan-American organizers announced Pan-American Youth Championship on the same dates as CYCC.

Michael Barron, who was youth coordinator at that time, wanted to boycott Pan-American tournament, so no Canadian representative will participate. To make this happen, he gave an ultimatum to all juniors who willing to participate in Pan-American games. They will not be allowed to go to WYCC – end of discussion. This was backed up by CFC.

Looks like this adjustment was made on the fly. So, who is the victim on this case. Definitely not Pan-American organizers, and not CFC. Weakest group - out top juniors are the ones who get hit the most in this case. (WCM Jackie Peng, WCM Dora (Jiaxin) Liu and Dezheng Kong)

FIDE only rule 2.4 is: ‘They allow extra participation from any federation.’ There is no mention of rules such as: ‘If you participate in Pan-American games, you will not be allowed to go to WYCC.’

Can we blame our top juniors, trying to represent Canada in Pan-American games in Columbian. Someone definitely does, otherwise following rule would not be created. :) They were trying to make Canada proud at international stage and kudos to them!

At the end of it all, they are getting penalized for it. :)

[Fred McKim]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

Hello everyone,

I am here to bring an issue with 2011 WYCC participation in Brazil. This is concerning special case -> top kids who are not allowed to represent Canada in WYCC this year in Brazil.

Players:
WCM Jackie Peng (top girl U14 in Canada)
WCM Jiaxin (Dora) Lui (top girl U10 in Canada)
Dezheng Kong (to boy U12 in Canada)

WCM Jackie Peng and Dezheng Kong did not register to join Canadian team in WYCC this year. WCM Jaxin (Dora) Liu tried, but got declined by CFC to join WYCC team.
WHY?

The problem started, when Pan-American Chess organizers scheduled their tournament on same dates as 2011 CYCC in Richmond Hill. As a result fowling players decided to go and represent their country at Pan-American games: WCM Jackie Peng, WCM Jiaxin (Dora) Liu and Dezheng Kong. All of them are top juniors in their respective groups in Canada.

All 3 of them decided to participate in Pan-American games and make Canada proud in Columbia. :D

The reason why they decided to join Pan-American team is because CFC had following rules in place at that time.

Rules
Regarding participation in the WYCC:
3 ways that a player can participate with the Canadian team at the
WYCC:
1) win a spot by qualifying at the CYCC with a top 3 position result in
their section.
2) Apply to the CFC for a spot as a player that competed in the CYCC but
did not qualify with an additional fee of $150
3) Participate as the Canadian Player that holds the top rating for their
section, regardless as to whether they played in the CYCC or not.

Please note rule #3. This rule allows them to participate in WYCC as extra players. The only catch is they have to pay their own expenses, if they decide to join WYCC team. (extra players are: did not play in CYCC and qualify the official way)

The only player, who expressed to join WYCC team this year. is WCM Jiaxin (Dora) Liu, as an extra player. Extra player must pay his/her own expenses. This means CFC will not have to spend a dime, only allow them to join WYCC team. She recently received her title from FIDE for her 2009 accomplishment in North American Chess Championship in Mexico.
She also is a senior this year and this is her best chance to win WYCC championship, especially with addition of her new title.

I am very puzzled why CFC is refusing her to play in WYCC this year. Please correct me, if I am wrong. Is it in CFC best interest to send in strongest competitors to WYCC and represent CANADA at World's stage?

My point is : Why should I our top juniors suffer, because of scheduled conflict between Pan-American and CYCC tournaments? Out top juniors are the ones who are suffering from this. This is wrong!

FIDE has a rule in place for cases like this:
2.4 - Any federation can register extra players
Link: http://011.com/en/regulations/genreg...=4&hl=en&ct=cl

This is special case. If, both tournaments were scheduled in different times, we would not have this problem at this time. Is it sad that CFC does not want to see it in any other way. The questions I ask: Why should I top juniors be victims?

CFC case is - they are not allowed to go, because they did not play in CFC
(end of discussion). :(

How could they play in both tournaments?
Can you really blame them for choosing Pan-American games and represent their country, since they are top players in their age group?

We are looking for your support in this case, and allow extra players to participate in WYCC. FIDE already allows extra players to participate.

Mikhail
2011 Official Delegate f team Canada in Pan-American Chess games in Columbia
Hamilton Chess Club Secretary

Mikhail: One has to be careful of quoting CFC rules. Here are the present rules, from the CFC Handbook as found on the CFC Website. The rule you quote was replaced by the Governors when they passed these rules.

---

1012.Participation in the World Events:

[Motion 2011-B moved by Vladimir Birarov, seconded by Valer Demian

INVITED PLAYERS

(a) Canadian Youth Chess Championship (CYCC) is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions.

Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified to become official representatives for:

1) World Youth Chess Championship (WYCC);

2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship;

3) North American Youth Chess Championship.

If the winner is unable to participate, the second place finisher shall be invited to go in his place. If the second place finisher also declines, the highest finisher in the tournament who is willing to participate in the world event (if not rejected by CFC Executive due to the sub paragraph (d)), shall be selected. The CFC Board of Directors shall use an appropriate tie-breaking method to break ties if required to determine the order of finish.

All official representatives to WYCC should receive financial support from CFC to reduce their travel expenses.

(b) Players with the Special Rights according to FIDE rules will be eligible to participate at WYCC notwithstanding their participation at CYCC. In case of participation at CYCC, CFC will pay the cost of transportation for such players to WYCC in full.

ADDITIONAL PLAYERS

(c) 2nd and 3rd prize-winners (including tie-breakers for 2nd and 3rd places) in each category will be eligible to participate at WYCC using their own funds.

(d) All other CYCC participants wishing to participate at WYCC are eligible to submit to CFC their applications for participation during 15 days after ending of CYCC. CFC Executive has the right to reject the application if the applicant's level at their discretion is significantly lower than the average level of his/her category at WYCC. All players whose applications are approved will be eligible to participate at WYCC using their own funds plus paying extra fee of $150 to CFC Youth Program fund.

(e) 3 top CFC rated players in each category (by January 1st of the current year) if not able to participate at CYCC due to extraordinary circumstances, and wishing to participate at WYCC, are eligible to submit to CFC their applications for participation at WYCC before the start of CYCC. CFC Executive has the right to reject the application at their discretion if applicant's circumstances are not valid and/or exceptional. All players whose applications are approved will be eligible to participate at WYCC using their own funds plus paying extra fee of $300 to CFC Youth Program fund.

----

It is my understanding from being copied on various e-mails at the time, that all attendees at the Pan-Am's were aware they were losing any ability to play in the 2011 WYCC. There might well have been more who would have gone, but decided to stay and play in the CYCC and WYCC.

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

Mikhail, I think this post should be on the CFC Forum (at least it should be there as well...) I don't know which forum is "the correct" place, but it should appear on the CFC forum since it is directly related to CFC matters, not just chess in general. (of course, I realize that many more people seem to check out Chesstalk than the CFC forum...)

Hi Kerry,

Yes, you are probably correct. I chose this, because most people goes to this forum, including president, governors and organizers. I already did bring this issue up privately, without successful conclusion. :)

Mikhail

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

Mikhail: One has to be careful of quoting CFC rules. Here are the present rules, from the CFC Handbook as found on the CFC Website. The rule you quote was replaced by the Governors when they passed these rules.

---

1012.Participation in the World Events:

[Motion 2011-B moved by Vladimir Birarov, seconded by Valer Demian

INVITED PLAYERS

(a) Canadian Youth Chess Championship (CYCC) is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions.

Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified to become official representatives for:

1) World Youth Chess Championship (WYCC);

2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship;

3) North American Youth Chess Championship.

If the winner is unable to participate, the second place finisher shall be invited to go in his place. If the second place finisher also declines, the highest finisher in the tournament who is willing to participate in the world event (if not rejected by CFC Executive due to the sub paragraph (d)), shall be selected. The CFC Board of Directors shall use an appropriate tie-breaking method to break ties if required to determine the order of finish.

All official representatives to WYCC should receive financial support from CFC to reduce their travel expenses.

(b) Players with the Special Rights according to FIDE rules will be eligible to participate at WYCC notwithstanding their participation at CYCC. In case of participation at CYCC, CFC will pay the cost of transportation for such players to WYCC in full.

ADDITIONAL PLAYERS

(c) 2nd and 3rd prize-winners (including tie-breakers for 2nd and 3rd places) in each category will be eligible to participate at WYCC using their own funds.

(d) All other CYCC participants wishing to participate at WYCC are eligible to submit to CFC their applications for participation during 15 days after ending of CYCC. CFC Executive has the right to reject the application if the applicant's level at their discretion is significantly lower than the average level of his/her category at WYCC. All players whose applications are approved will be eligible to participate at WYCC using their own funds plus paying extra fee of $150 to CFC Youth Program fund.

(e) 3 top CFC rated players in each category (by January 1st of the current year) if not able to participate at CYCC due to extraordinary circumstances, and wishing to participate at WYCC, are eligible to submit to CFC their applications for participation at WYCC before the start of CYCC. CFC Executive has the right to reject the application at their discretion if applicant's circumstances are not valid and/or exceptional. All players whose applications are approved will be eligible to participate at WYCC using their own funds plus paying extra fee of $300 to CFC Youth Program fund.

----

It is my understanding from being copied on various e-mails at the time, that all attendees at the Pan-Am's were aware they were losing any ability to play in the 2011 WYCC. There might well have been more who would have gone, but decided to stay and play in the CYCC and WYCC.

Hi Fred,

Yes, you are correct that I should be careful when quoting CFC rules.

The real question, which is still not answered: 'Why was old rule was replaced with new one? Why kids, especially our top juniors who want represent Canada in both prestigious tournaments in the world will have to be panelized?'. This completely does not make any sense to me at all. FIDE did not make any special adjustments to their rules regarding participation, only CFC did.

The old rule was good and worked perfectly well!

I do recall, that youth co-ordinator Michael Barron wanted to boycott the Pan-American games. Is this the only reason why old rule was in place? If this is the only reason, why do our juniors have to be penalized for mistakes Pan-American organizers committed? I don't quite understand this.

Mikhail

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

Fred, apparently I've missed something because I'm having trouble following the logic here. If the three players mentioned wish to attend the WYCC, and if they're prepared to pay their own expenses (since, I assume, they're not eligible for any subsidies from the CFC due to non-participation in the CYCC), and if their participation at WYCC meets FIDE's requirements, then why would the CFC stand in their way? Are these three players asking to have their expenses subsidized? Is that the basis of the problem?

[Fred McKim]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

Hi Fred,

Yes, you are correct that I should be careful when quoting CFC rules.

The real question, which is still not answered: 'Why was old rule was replaced with new one? Why kids, especially our top juniors who want represent Canada in both prestigious tournaments in the world will have to be panelized?'. This completely does not make any sense to me at all. FIDE did not make any special adjustments to their rules regarding participation, only CFC did.

The old rule was good and worked perfectly well!

I do recall, that youth co-ordinator Michael Barron wanted to boycott the Pan-American games. Is this the only reason why old rule was in place? If this is the only reason, why do our juniors have to be penalized for mistakes Pan-American organizers committed? I don't quite understand this.

Mikhail

The new rules were put into place before the situation arose with the Pan-Am's. It is clear that the road to the WYCC is via participation in the CYCC, even for those who are very strong.

It was the opinion of the President that participation in the Pan-Am's was not a strong enough reason to waive this requirement. None of the players who went to the Pan-Am's raised any issue at that time, knowing what their decision meant.

[Fred McKim]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

Fred, apparently I've missed something because I'm having trouble following the logic here. If the three players mentioned wish to attend the WYCC, and if they're prepared to pay their own expenses (since, I assume, they're not eligible for any subsidies from the CFC due to non-participation in the CYCC), and if their participation at WYCC meets FIDE's requirements, then why would the CFC stand in their way? Are these three players asking to have their expenses subsidized? Is that the basis of the problem?

We are trying to follow our own rules, Peter. There were other players who decided not to go to the Pan-Am's, as they preferred to go to the WYCC this year (and therefore attend the CYCC).

What we have here is a situation where all sides understood the rules, but one party now has had a change of heart.

[Vlad Dobrich]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

[QUOTE/]
Michael Barron, who was youth coordinator at that time, wanted to boycott Pan-American tournament, so no Canadian representative will participate. To make this happen, he gave an ultimatum to all juniors who willing to participate in Pan-American games. They will not be allowed to go to WYCC – end of discussion. This was backed up by CFC.[/QUOTE]


That "end of discussion" phrase is the most irritating one which appears in Canadian chess. It was originally used when the GTCL president was questioned years ago why he transferred the entire Toronto Chess Building Fund - some $25,000 to the CFC. His answer, I'm told, was "They needed the money, I transferred it to their account - end of discusion!"
The phrase could also be used with the disappearence of $120,000 Trilliam grant - "The money is gone, we don't know where it went - end of discussion!"
Or more recently, with the new CFC web site. "It cost $18,000 so the new site must be better than the old - hopefully we'll eventually get it working - end of discussion!"
The chess organization in Canada sucks, big time - end of discussion!

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

The new rules were put into place before the situation arose with the Pan-Am's. It is clear that the road to the WYCC is via participation in the CYCC, even for those who are very strong.

It was the opinion of the President that participation in the Pan-Am's was not a strong enough reason to waive this requirement. None of the players who went to the Pan-Am's raised any issue at that time, knowing what their decision meant.

Hi Fred,

As I recall the new rules were put in place in January 2010, just around the time Pan-Am tournament was announced. Also, around this time Michael Barron was not happy that organizers and was looking for way that both tournaments will not conflict with each other. I do not know, if he contacted organizers of Pan-Am games trying to find a solution. I do know that CYCC dates were announced mid summer of 2010. As a result old rule was removed and new rule was placed -> ‘Penalizing players who missed CYCC and went to Pan-Am games instead’.

As a result our top juniors were penalized, and Canada is not sending it’s strongest team this year. Please correct me, if I am wrong Fred, but is in it in CFC best interest? Because of this 3 top juniors in our country are not allowed to go. Following the logic here, it looks like it was the only reason.

Non of the players raised any issues probably, because they were preparing very hard for upcoming tournament. Who can blame them.

I completely agree with Peter. and still find it very hard following the logic here as well. What was really wrong with old rule? Did FIDE pass the motion to remove old rule entirely?

[Fred McKim]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

Hi Fred,

As I recall the new rules were put in place in January 2010, just around the time Pan-Am tournament was announced. Also, around this time Michael Barron was not happy that organizers and was looking for way that both tournaments will not conflict with each other. I do not know, if he contacted organizers of Pan-Am games trying to find a solution. I do know that CYCC dates were announced mid summer of 2010. As a result old rule was removed and new rule was placed -> ‘Penalizing players who missed CYCC and went to Pan-Am games instead’.

As a result our top juniors were penalized, and Canada is not sending it’s strongest team this year. Please correct me, if I am wrong Fred, but is in it in CFC best interest? Because of this 3 top juniors in our country are not allowed to go. Following the logic here, it looks like it was the only reason.

Non of the players raised any issues probably, because they were preparing very hard for upcoming tournament. Who can blame them.

I completely agree with Peter. and still find it very hard following the logic here as well. What was really wrong with old rule? Did FIDE pass the motion to remove old rule entirely?

Mikhail, I have presented the basic facts. I think if you need a more elaboration you can discuss this with either Bob Gillanders (who made the original decision, as President at the time) or Michael Van Keitz (who is the current President and has upheld the ruling).

Having said that we both know you've discussed this already with Bob, so I assume you are posting here to gain some sort of grassroot support for your position. Fair enough.

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

Mikhail, I have presented the basic facts. I think if you need a more elaboration you can discuss this with either Bob Gillanders (who made the original decision, as President at the time) or Michael Van Keitz (who is the current President and has upheld the ruling).

Having said that we both know you've discussed this already with Bob, so I assume you are posting here to gain some sort of grassroot support for your position. Fair enough.

Hi Fred,

I presented only facts here as well. I am posting here to let the general know. Let them figure it out here who is right and who is wrong here. As you know, we tried talking to CFC about this, with no results. It seems to me that it is their way or a highway. Both sides presented their cases, and it should be up to them to decide. CFC would not exist, if it wasn’t for them, and especially our young participants! They are the ones who are paying memberships. Please correct me, if I am wrong in any way.

Mikhail

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Concerning extra players representing CANADA at 2011 WYCC in Brazil

If the children are willing to pay, we should be willing to let them play.

I understand the sentiment of wishing to elevate the CYCC but the seeming decision to allow individuals who did quite poorly in the CYCC to participate in the WYCC for an extra fee also seems to me to diminish the importance of the CYCC.