Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

[Paul Leblanc]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

All interest/income from the investments goes to the CFC so it would have been a zero sum calculation to charge interest then hand it back.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean just sell chess to them as 'chess'?

Governments, if not sponsors, like to classify what things are, other than in terms of their name.

I mean that there are plenty of good things to say about chess other than saying "it is a sport" and as such it deserves funding. If government officials need to classify to allow funding, let them do it.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

A team play. Chess is too individual game.
A fighting spirit. How many times have you fights after or during chess games :D

Chess is a game of co-operation. After all each player can compete with another only by agreeing to play in accordance with the rules of chess. Physically, I can easily move my bishop as if it were a rook or a queen, but I do not do so because we cannot play the game "chess" unless we follow it's rules. So it gives one practice in follow group norms and conventions, surely an essential life skill.

And this is true of life in general. Every explicit competition requires, and indeed is only made possible by, an implicit co-operation. At the base of it we must co-operate with the laws of physics, so there is never any competition that does not involve a set of rules. Thus to learn to compete we must learn to follow the agreed upon rules which themselves make competition possible.

Furthermore one cannot play chess well unless he (or of course, she) learns to make all the individual pieces support and co-operate with each other. As good play requires planning it teaches leadership, generalship if you like. As it requires calculation it teaches one to be forward looking and to put oneself mentally in the position of the other. And as it also rewards alertness it gives us a practice in a skill that is needed throughout our entire life.

As for fighting spirit, the game is precisely a formalized fight, as Emanuel Lasker realized and pointed out. You will never be really good at chess without a fighting spirit. The real delight of a hard chess game, win or lose, is precisely the fight it involves. There is no need to fight again after the game for then the real fight is ended.

[Gary Ruben]

P.S.

Just to clarify the numbers, the Foundation loaned the CFC $48,500 in 2007/2008. The loan was repaid in full in February 2009 after the CFC received the proceeds of the sale of the building in Ottawa.

Was interest charged and if so at what rate?

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

Chess has to be sold to governments and sponsors for what it is

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean just sell chess to them as 'chess'?

Governments, if not sponsors, like to classify what things are, other than in terms of their name.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

Reality is its an established Olympic sport with funding from Sport Canada that Canadians dominate the world scene in.

It is much easier to dominate on the "world scene" in a sport practised mostly in a handful of nordic countries, pretty much like bobsleigh. Chess on the other hand is played seriously in just about every country in the world, hot and cold, big or small. By this I mean no disrespect towards curlers. Thanks to one of my best friend who is a curler, I played once. That was enough to see how interesting and difficult this game is, physically and otherwise.

That said I see no point in chess making big efforts to be recognised as a sport, even for funding reasons. Because if that happens, chess is likely to be quickly classified as a "minor" sport, with minor funding if any. Chess has to be sold to governments and sponsors for what it is (that is where the efforts should be directed), and only that, which is quite a handful.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

Kevin, I agree with most of what you say. Just to clarify the numbers, the Foundation loaned the CFC $48,500 in 2007/2008. The loan was repaid in full in February 2009 after the CFC received the proceeds of the sale of the building in Ottawa. The CFC would not have survived without the loan. I know Gary doesn't care about that and I know you do.

Paul, the money mostly came from the CFC. They HAD the charitible donation status and went without the money from the life members. Money that should have gone into chess in my view. Maybe chess wouldn't be an experience which mostly ends in a persons early 20's.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

Kevin, I agree with most of what you say. Just to clarify the numbers, the Foundation loaned the CFC $48,500 in 2007/2008. The loan was repaid in full in February 2009 after the CFC received the proceeds of the sale of the building in Ottawa. The CFC would not have survived without the loan. I know Gary doesn't care about that and I know you do.

I originally was inclined to fully agree with Gary, years ago, when I did a poll on the subject of raiding or dismantling the Foundation (I think it was in fact the latter). Then I saw the vehemence of the arguments against, and so I doubted from both the unpopularity (and the merits/ramifications against - especially legal) of the idea of dismantling the Foundation that it would happen any time soon, if ever. After all, with the CFC on the brink back then (and to some extent now, still), when would the idea of dismantling the Foundation ever be more popular?

Still, I might be in favour of the CFC in future making more, perhaps less necessary, requests for loans from the Foundation (raids, you might say) if they were well thought out, and the loans were just sufficent for the cause. For example a loan to fund (and/or temporarily cover any unfortunate losses incurred from) an ambitious CFC advertising campaign, if that was deemed sufficiently desirable and thus given permission. Such strategic 'raids' could perhaps be less unpopular than dismantling the Foundation.

[Paul Leblanc]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

Kevin, I agree with most of what you say. Just to clarify the numbers, the Foundation loaned the CFC $48,500 in 2007/2008. The loan was repaid in full in February 2009 after the CFC received the proceeds of the sale of the building in Ottawa. The CFC would not have survived without the loan. I know Gary doesn't care about that and I know you do.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

The only big 'raid' I know of occured when the CFC was in dire straits a few years back, when a request for a certain amount of cash (exactly how much & by whom I can't recall, but it involved thousands of dollars, I think) was made by the CFC, and granted. Even K. S. called it raiding the cookie jar on his blog back then, though he may have been doing so for the sake of entertainment value more than out of criticism.

I'm not talking about raiding the cookie jar. I'm in favour of dismantling the foundation and using the money for chess. It's hard to ask for handouts when your organization has more liquidity than some nations in the Eurozone. :)

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

To the world in general (e.g., the IOC), chess is a sport, but it's a tough sell in Canada. So, moving on to "other avenues" of government support, the federal-govt-message-that-the-CFC-didn't-want-to-hear (at least in the 1970s and 1980s) was that chess is a recreation and thus a provincial rather than federal field.

Embracing that idea can have exciting consequences. I wrote a longer reply, but "talking to the cat". I suppose that if anybody wants to discuss this, he or she could open a fresh thread.

Personally I've thought now and then that chess might be sold to the public more often for its pure entertainment or recreation value than previously attempted. Theme park/resort ideas are not unprecidented. For example, chess resorts (or even video arcades) could include areas with video games played for coins using chess (or chess variant) playing programs (with progressively harder levels of playing opposition). Alice in Wonderland chess theme playgrounds for kids, and ballrooms with chessboard & chesspiece decor could be highlights. :)
[edit: for bigger resorts, swimming pools with floating chess sets are an option]

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

My own thought is if the CFC wants government support they should simplify the structure. Something like a chess federation, with a cash rich foundation, doesn't seem to me to be a prime candidate. The thought which comes to mind is why don't they spend their own money before asking the taxpayers for a handout.

Hi Gary

You might recall that after polling on chesstalk some years ago, alone, I concluded that the CFC 'raiding the foundation' wouldn't be a popular idea for at least some time to come with the average CFC member, let alone the Governors.

The only big 'raid' I know of occured when the CFC was in dire straits a few years back, when a request for a certain amount of cash (exactly how much & by whom I can't recall, but it involved thousands of dollars, I think) was made by the CFC, and granted. Even K. S. called it raiding the cookie jar on his blog back then, though he may have been doing so for the sake of entertainment value more than out of criticism.

The most valid argument against raiding the foundation or winding it up altogether is that life member/donor cash was put in the foundation with the expectation that only the interest was to be used by the CFC, not the principle. A legal way around that miight need to be found, let alone possibly explaining or apologizing to life members/donors for using their money in a way they didn't expect. That said, the CFC still has certain cash flow issues in my estimation as well as yours, so at least a well considered raid every now and then (given proper permission) remains a tempting thought.

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

My own thought is if the CFC wants government support they should simplify the structure. Something like a chess federation, with a cash rich foundation, doesn't seem to me to be a prime candidate. The thought which comes to mind is why don't they spend their own money before asking the taxpayers for a handout.

I doubt it.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

To the world in general (e.g., the IOC), chess is a sport, but it's a tough sell in Canada. So, moving on to "other avenues" of government support,

My own thought is if the CFC wants government support they should simplify the structure. Something like a chess federation, with a cash rich foundation, doesn't seem to me to be a prime candidate. The thought which comes to mind is why don't they spend their own money before asking the taxpayers for a handout.

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: Chess recognized as a sport by Sport Canada

This was exactly my point. The problem is that much of the chess community wants to redefine the standard definition of sport to get money. The Chess community would be much better off if they pursued other avenues to generate the needed revenue.

To the world in general (e.g., the IOC), chess is a sport, but it's a tough sell in Canada. So, moving on to "other avenues" of government support, the federal-govt-message-that-the-CFC-didn't-want-to-hear (at least in the 1970s and 1980s) was that chess is a recreation and thus a provincial rather than federal field.

Embracing that idea can have exciting consequences. I wrote a longer reply, but "talking to the cat". I suppose that if anybody wants to discuss this, he or she could open a fresh thread.