ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

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  • ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

    I've been reading this four part series on chessbase.com's website called

    "A Gross Miscarriage of Justice in Computer Chess". You can find it at the following address:
    http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7813

    As many of you know Rybka stands accused of being a copy of Fruity. Now Rajlich, Rybka's author, has said from the very beginning he studied Fruity very closely and took ideas from it (Fruity started off as an open source program)..but the accusation here seems to be that he literally cut and paste Fruity's code.

    I should note the chessbase article's author, Soren Riis, says he is a Rybka forum moderator, and I am not sure if to consider that a personal connection to Rybka and IM Vasik Rajlich and so, the reader is left with "some" distrust of his objectivity. However, at least one of the arguments he presents will leave any open minded reader with questions about how the ICGA conducted its investigation.

    During the investigation there was a committee of (I think) 34 people who were presented research from 3 of its members. After the presentations were given the members voted to strip Rybka of its world championship titles under their banner. A media storm then followed basically labeling Rybka a product of cheating/stealing.

    Now I'd like to reiterate a single key point made in the chessbase article just to get people thinking about this issue:

    During one of the presentations a paper was handed out to the committee with lines of code under two columns. The left hand column was labelled "Fruity" and the right hand column was labelled "Rybka". As you look down the two columns in comparison you see many of the paragraphs on both side are exactly the same or very similar.

    One thing that struck me is that to the many lay people on the committee, heavily dependent on the more experienced researchers, this was the critical moment in swinging their vote to "guilty". Here they had something they could understand...two things side by side that looked similar.

    But it turns out that the code on the right under the heading "Rybka" was completely fabricated for the presentation. There were many possible lines of code that would output the results of a decompiled version of Rybka they had, so they purposefully wrote in code that would be visually similar to what was on the Fruity side...Even though there are many possible permutations which look very different to Fruity which would have given the same result.

    In Soren Riis' words, "There are many different ways to write functionally equivalent code that looks nothing like the Fruit code. Dr. Miguel Ballicora posted source code to the Rybka forum that generates Rybka and Fruit PSTs but looks completely different from Fruit code."

    Now it may turn out that Rybka is a pirated version of Fruity. There are many other arguments back and fourth on the internet of course and I have not read all of them. There is an entire website dedicated to showing Rybka's guilt now (http://rybka-is-fruit.wikispaces.com/) and I have not gone through all of its claims to weigh them against chessbase's four part series...which was in itself a fairly long read. (And Im sure Ive missed or misunderstood at least some of its details).

    What I can say is that one little part of the ICGA presentation does very little to demonstrate Rajlich's guilt. Quite the contrary, it makes the IGCA investigators seem dishonest.
    Last edited by Garvin Nunes; Thursday, 12th January, 2012, 03:17 PM. Reason: syntax, factual correction

  • #2
    Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

    This does not surprise me at all. It seemed like a kangaroo court from the beginning.

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    • #3
      Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

      Originally posted by Vlad Drkulec View Post
      This does not surprise me at all. It seemed like a kangaroo court from the beginning.
      Rybka was over 100 points stronger than Fruit. There must have been something unique in its programming.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

        Originally posted by Garvin Nunes View Post
        I've been reading this four part series on chessbase.com's website called

        "A Gross Miscarriage of Justice in Computer Chess". You can find it at the following address:
        http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7813
        While I can't say I've read the entire four-part series, let's remember that Chessbase sells Rybka...

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

          Originally posted by Keith MacKinnon View Post
          While I can't say I've read the entire four-part series, let's remember that Chessbase sells Rybka...

          Ad hominem fallacy?

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          • #6
            Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

            Keep in mind that the author of that report works for Rybka, so clearly he is going to be extremely biased. Chessbase has always had its own agenda. There's a reason that they never released any news articles when Rybka was banned even though every other major website did.

            Didn't read top of article but see that you already noted the Rybka connection. Though, if Rybka is innocent it really sucks that everyone is against them.
            Last edited by Eric Hansen; Thursday, 12th January, 2012, 08:35 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

              Originally posted by Eric Hansen View Post
              Keep in mind that the author of that report works for Rybka, so clearly he is going to be extremely biased. Chessbase has always had its own agenda. There's a reason that they never released any news articles when Rybka was banned even though every other major website did.

              Didn't read top of article but see that you already noted the Rybka connection. Though, if Rybka is innocent it really sucks that everyone is against them.
              As I tried to warn against in my post. But the argument presented, it seems to me, has to be addressed if we are to believe Rybka's "trial" was fair.

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              • #8
                Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

                I rarely refer to the details of computer chess in the newspaper column; this case (among others) has made me glad. The 31-page (1 MB pdf of the four articles) Chessbase-friendly response to their product's shaming has taken six months to emerge. I saved a copy. Even though I am a sometimes programmer, not a lay person, normally I'd look to somebody non-partisan such as Bob Hyatt to sort it out. Oops, he stands as one of the accused. I'm looking forward to the appearance of a rebuttal (or something functionally equivalent) of less than 31 pages in no more than a few months!

                I purchased Rybka 3 with Aquarium. The argument did not change my buying decisions.

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                • #9
                  Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

                  Originally posted by Garvin Nunes View Post
                  Ad hominem fallacy?
                  LOL. Nope, aside from the first-person references required by English grammar, Keith didn't mention a single human in his brief recherche. One corporation, one computer program. The older I get, the more often I ask Cui bono?

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                  • #10
                    Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

                    Originally posted by Jonathan Berry View Post
                    LOL. Nope, aside from the first-person references required by English grammar, Keith didn't mention a single human in his brief recherche. One corporation, one computer program. The older I get, the more often I ask Cui bono?

                    His argument falls to the genetic ad hominem fallacy as do all appeals to hypocrisy.

                    That is he spoke of who the authors relationships were...but NOT HIS ARGUMENTS.

                    Its too bad our Canadian high schools do not have a reasoning course in grade 9. We sure as heck need it.

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                    • #11
                      Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

                      Originally posted by Garvin Nunes View Post
                      His argument falls to the genetic ad hominem fallacy as do all appeals to hypocrisy.

                      That is he spoke of who the authors relationships were...but NOT HIS ARGUMENTS.

                      Its too bad our Canadian high schools do not have a reasoning course in grade 9. We sure as heck need it.
                      LOL to the LOL. It is not ad hominem to point out that an essay may include advocacy amidst the pure truth and reason. Keith did not refer to the author, rather to the corporation which published the essay. "Chessbase sells Rybka" quoth he.

                      OTOH, to imply that a commentator is unable to reason--aye, that might be interpreted as an ad hominem attack.

                      I feel confident that Keith, among those who dabble in chesstalk, has the reasoning power and mental capacity to figure out whether Rybka really did run afoul of ICGA's competitive rules. It would be, I think, a lengthy undertaking. Life is short. But go ahead, use the reasoning skills that you did not learn in Canada during Grade 9. But first, satisfy yourself that you have all the facts. For myself, I'm in no rush to find out the answer. The article published by Chessbase in four parts will not be the final word.

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                      • #12
                        Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

                        Originally posted by Keith MacKinnon View Post
                        While I can't say I've read the entire four-part series, let's remember that Chessbase sells Rybka...
                        Yes but...

                        The jury was composed of a bunch of people who compete with Rybka.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

                          Originally posted by Garvin Nunes View Post
                          Rybka was over 100 points stronger than Fruit. There must have been something unique in its programming.
                          Considering that numbers can be fudged (haven't we learned anything from the climate change thread?), I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from this. Are ratings calculations audited?

                          Perhaps a better test would be to have each program, with identical settings, each evaluate a number (several dozens at least) of complex but quiescent middlegame positions. Since chess engines usually rank their moves in order from top to bottom with a score, have each engine spew out its move rankings for each position, and compare the results.
                          Only the rushing is heard...
                          Onward flies the bird.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

                            Rybka is history. Houdini tricks now.

                            Swidler:

                            * Russianchessfan: If you had to pick one player to represent earth in a chess game vs. aliens, which active player would it be? You can pick different active players for the white and black side, if you feel it necessary.

                            Houdini *

                            ( http://www.crestbook.com/en/node/1390 )

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: ICGA Falsifies Evidence Against Rybka...?

                              Originally posted by Paul Bonham View Post
                              Considering that numbers can be fudged (haven't we learned anything from the climate change thread?), I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from this. Are ratings calculations audited?

                              Perhaps a better test would be to have each program, with identical settings, each evaluate a number (several dozens at least) of complex but quiescent middlegame positions. Since chess engines usually rank their moves in order from top to bottom with a score, have each engine spew out its move rankings for each position, and compare the results.
                              The problem lies with the phrase "with identical settings". Unless the programs are identical (and without extensive knowledge of the source code) there is no way to make sure both programs are configured the same way. The chess playing program on your smart phone might well find the best move in a given situation even though it is far less capable than anything running Rybka or Fritz.
                              ...Mike Pence: the Lord of the fly.

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