Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

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  • #46
    Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

    Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
    Hi Gary:

    In the initial match, did Euwe follow your advice: " Only play the Winawer against weak opposition "??
    Bob, Euwe scored only one half point from 4 games in that match against Alekhine with his Winawer.

    After the second match the old "saw" came into play. When you can't play anymore, organize.
    Gary Ruben
    CC - IA and SIM

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    • #47
      Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

      Originally posted by Gary Ruben View Post
      So many players use it that I think it must be an easy defense to teach a student. A catch all against 1. e4.
      Do you mean Canadian players you know, Gary?

      If so, then maybe they read what you write on chesstalk concerning the Winawer, and then do the opposite :D. Either that, or it's because top rated Canadian GM Sambuev plays it .
      Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
      Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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      • #48
        Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

        Originally posted by Kevin Pacey View Post
        Do you mean Canadian players you know, Gary?

        If so, then maybe they read what you write on chesstalk concerning the Winawer, and then do the opposite :D. Either that, or it's because top rated Canadian GM Sambuev plays it .
        Are you talking about the Canadian championship game with Noritsyn where he got lucky in a lost position?

        It hurts me not that players might be playing that to spite me, as you suggest. It's not like I'll be the opponent.
        Gary Ruben
        CC - IA and SIM

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        • #49
          Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

          Originally posted by Gary Ruben View Post
          Are you talking about the Canadian championship game with Noritsyn where he [GM Sambuev] got lucky in a lost position?
          If I remember right, he also lost a won game with Black in a Winawer against the promising young Nikita Kraiouchkine some years ago. The luck evened out, at least in these two cases. Like I wrote earlier, I suspect the Winawer tends to have somewhat more random outcomes than usual for an opening (at least it does in my case). That doesn't mean it's usually a bad choice to play.

          You mentioned Alekhine in another post above. He did play the Winawer himself as Black, even in at least one world championship match. That was when he played Capablanca. If memory serves, he beat Capa in the first game of the match, when he used it. Even in 1927, Capa was a much more formidable opponent than Euwe was during Alekhine's matches with him, in my estimation.
          Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
          Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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          • #50
            Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

            Originally posted by Kevin Pacey View Post
            You mentioned Alekhine in another post above. He did play the Winawer himself as Black, even in at least one world championship match. That was when he played Capablanca. If memory serves, he beat Capa in the first game of the match, when he used it. Even in 1927, Capa was a much more formidable opponent than Euwe was during Alekhine's matches with him, in my estimation.
            Capablanca didn't play 1. e4 again in the match and lost the match. Why no rematch?
            Gary Ruben
            CC - IA and SIM

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            • #51
              Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

              Originally posted by Gary Ruben View Post
              Capablanca didn't play 1. e4 again in the match and lost the match. Why no rematch?
              In those days the world champ could pick and choose when, for what prize fund, and whom against to defend his title. That was well before FIDE existed, along with the regular world championship cycle that it successfully oversaw for such a long time, until Kasparov came along and formed the PCA, which lasted for some years, and once he and Nigel Short highlighted the schism by having a seperate PCA match for its world championship title.

              I assume you know much, if not all of this of this. As for why Alekhine never granted Capa a rematch, I and at least some chess historians assume he was afraid of risking his title against such a strong opponent, and played lesser lights like Euwe instead. Reports had it Alekhine was drinking during the first match, which may well be why he lost. Euwe losing with the Winawer so much might be explained by the fact that Alekhine understood it better, possibly with both colours. Euwe sportingly (foolishly?) granted Alekhine a quick rematch. Alekhine stopped drinking, and smoking, as part of his preparation for the match, and proceeded to crush Euwe, who is sometimes regarded as one of the weakest world champions.
              Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
              Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer

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              • #52
                Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

                Originally posted by Kevin Pacey View Post
                played lesser lights like Euwe instead
                Efim Bogoljubov should be used instead.

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                • #53
                  Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

                  Technically there are only three possible accurate values for any first move, namely 1, 0.5, or 0. With perfect play the game of chess is either won for white, a draw, or won for black.

                  Of course, since no one, including computers, can play perfectly, we must evaluate any position with some heuristic backed by some analysis. But they are just heuristic approximations and their value for any position will vary depending on what factors are taken into consideration, unless that position is exactly calculable to the end. The opening position is not one of those, and will not be one for a very long time.

                  Computers have now, it seems clear, surpassed humans in calculation by quite a lot, but they must still heuristically evaluate any position that is not calculable to the end, and thus they are still fallible if, perhaps, less fallible than people (but even this may be doubted).

                  So the point is that any evaluation must be taken with that proverbial grain of salt, and the fact that one computer program evaluates starting moves differently is really irrelevant. Choose your first move because you like it best.

                  I support starting beginners out with the king-pawn openings because I think that they are easier, at first, for a beginner to understand, but that is only an opinion and if yours disagrees with mine you may be right.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

                    " the unbeatable Winawer French "!! - http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7043

                    Bob A

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                    • #55
                      Re: Valuation of W's Opening Move 1.e4?

                      Originally posted by Bob Armstrong View Post
                      " the unbeatable Winawer French "!! - http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7043

                      Bob A
                      Bob, when I see a player in a Canadian event lose out on prize money because he has lost his French Winawer game, I smile.

                      I feel certain a chess player whose dominant eye is his right eye pushes 1. ... e6 and players whose dominant eye is the left eye pushes 1. ... c6 for KlAuZtRaPhObiC reasons. :p
                      Gary Ruben
                      CC - IA and SIM

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