CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Failure to Play Last Round.

[Patrick Kirby]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Failure to Play Last Round.

If the player requested a round 5 bye prior to the start of the tournament and the TD agreed, then he should be eligible for prizes. If he was not going to be eligible, the TD should have told him that before the first round.

However if the bye was requested after the tournament began, I think it should be considered a withdrawal.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Failure to Play Last Round.

t has alerted organizers/TD's to the importance of advertising the terms re these two items before the tournament.r

No prizes for byers.
The tournament is about playing. The last round is important as the first one.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Failure to Play Last Round.

The Cooperative Chess Coalition ( CCC ) hopes that by raising the two issues of last round bye requests, and prizes if tournament not " finished ", it has alerted organizers/TD's to the importance of advertising the terms re these two items before the tournament.

Bob Armstrong, CCC Coordinator

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Failure to Play Last Round.

Hi John:

Though Erwin did another post concerning the Niagara Falls Open, this thread has nothing to do with the actual tournament. It just so happens that the tournament condition from that tournament of " 2 byes only, in first 3 rounds " is a nice clear rule and suits my hypothetical.

The actual tournament I have been trying to remember re not playing the last round is a different one from some time ago.

What is interesting about that tournament, re this issue, though, is that in his spontaneous TD decision re the last round re Erwin, John Erickson used the " no last round bye; only withdrawal " rule in making his decision, which is the same rule used by our Scarborough CC, and by at least one Toronto organizer/TD.

It's maybe a good thing Erwin didn't happen, in 4 rounds, to tie for first, since it would appear that the issue of whether Erwin was eligible for a prize was not discussed at the time of the request for a 5th round bye.

Bob

[John Brown]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Failure to Play Last Round.

Hi Bob Armstrong;

If you are referring to The Niagara Falls Open 2012.
No player who competed got 4 points and was given a last round withdrawal for not playing the last round.
One player did get sick and had to withdraw due to their illness.
One player did not play the last round and the TD did not withdraw him and gave him the 0 pt bye for round 5.

Had Erwin (who started the original post) showed up and played I'm sure that the TD would have given the 0 pt bye for the last round and not withdrawn Erwin. Erwin contacted the TD late Friday about only playing
4 Rounds. The TD had to make a quick decision and chose to offer Erwin 4 Rounds and a last Round withdrawal. This was a hasty decision but Erwin did not show up so none of your post here ever happened.

If you do indeed have the exact tournament in question then maybe we can give you more accurate opinions.

[Aris Marghetis]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Failure to Play Last Round.

Why would the TD count it as a withdrawl rather than as a zero point bye??

AFAIK, you can request a bye for any round, but you just can't expect a 1/2-point for a bye in the "money rounds".

FWIW, I've been told that European tournaments don't give 1/2 points for byes: if you want the round off you get zero points.

Agree with John ...

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Failure to Play Last Round - Is Restriction a Good One?

To my knowledge, the player gave advance notice of needing a Rd. 5 bye in sufficient time ( not sure if it was prior to Rd. 1, but was early on, not when he saw his Rd. 5 pairing ).

It makes a big difference...
If the 0 point bye was requested after the start of round 1, then the arbiter had the right to refuse it and withdraw the player. If the request was made before the first round, then the arbiter is most likely wrong in not giving the prize.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Failure to Play Last Round - Is Restriction a Good One?

I suppose your interpretion would depend on your own definition of "withdrawal" and the rights you think a player has after he does something which results in him being considered to have withdrawn from the event.

Asking early simply means he asked before the situation happened and elected to contine to play under those conditions.

What did the TD do which was wrong and could have been the basis for an appeal? If we're going to hang the TD out to dry, we have to establish an infraction.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Failure to Play Last Round - Is Restriction a Good One?

Hi Gary:

To my knowledge, the player gave advance notice of needing a Rd. 5 bye in sufficient time ( not sure if it was prior to Rd. 1, but was early on, not when he saw his Rd. 5 pairing ).

As far as I know, the TD told the player that he would be treated as a Rd. 5 " withdrawal " = " U " = 0 pts.. This was his general rule ( if I'm remembering the right Organizer/TD ) and he did enforce it all the time.

In the actual tournament I'm trying to remember, I don't think the TD had advertised about " don't finish - don't win " before the tournament, and don't think he talked to the player about it when the player asked for the Rd. 5 " bye ".

In my view, the TD in the case I'm trying to remember, imposed an unadvertised rule ( no finish = no prize ), which he had no right to do, and deprived a deserving player of a prize.

Bob

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Failure to Play Last Round - Is Restriction a Good One?

Hi Bob,

Your problem can't reasonably be solved without knowing the facts of what transpired between the player and the TD. Was the request, if there was one, made before the start of the event or did the player simply phone it in after he found out who he'd be playing? What did the TD tell the player? In this case we don't know if the TD was in the habit of enforcing such a rule. It would appear no appeal was made because it isn't mentioned.

You have to strip away the emotion and look at the facts, which are in short supply here. What rule did the TD break? Which year approximately did this happen because your memory of the event is very fuzzy.

Gary

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Failure to Play Last Round - Is Restriction a Good One?

Hi Gary:

There has been a restriction by an organizer/TD in an actual tournament, that you must play the last round to win a prize ( I can't remember if it was advertised prior to the tournament or not, in the actual case ). And I can't remember what tournament, and am not sure of the organizer ( have an idea, but not sure, and don't want to drag someone in who shouldn't be here ).

In my scenario # 2 the facts are:

1. Pre- Tournament Advertising:
a) 2 byes only; only in the first three rounds ( Implies it is sufficient to advise the TD before he does the next round pairings );
b) to win a prize, you must play in the last round.

2. Pre-tournament notice by Player B:
a) has a work commitment and can't play round 5;
b) asks for a zero point Rd. 5 " bye ".

Facts:
1. TD marks Rd. 5 as " U " for Player B = withdrawal;
2. Player A and Player B have 4 point result.
3. TD awards prize to Player A; Player B does not win any prize.

Question:

Is this a reasonable restriction for an Organizer to impose ( done prior to the tournament )?

Bob, CCC Coordinator

It is not a reasonable restriction, in my opinion. Are we trying, as a chess community, to promote our game or are we trying to set up arbitrary rules that create obstacles for people who want to participate?

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Failure to Play Last Round - Is Restriction a Good One?

Hi Gary:

There has been a restriction by an organizer/TD in an actual tournament, that you must play the last round to win a prize ( I can't remember if it was advertised prior to the tournament or not, in the actual case ). And I can't remember what tournament, and am not sure of the organizer ( have an idea, but not sure, and don't want to drag someone in who shouldn't be here ).

In my scenario # 2 the facts are:

1. Pre- Tournament Advertising:
a) 2 byes only; only in the first three rounds ( Implies it is sufficient to advise the TD before he does the next round pairings );
b) to win a prize, you must play in the last round.

2. Pre-tournament notice by Player B:
a) has a work commitment and can't play round 5;
b) asks for a zero point Rd. 5 " bye ".

Facts:
1. TD marks Rd. 5 as " U " for Player B = withdrawal;
2. Player A and Player B have 4 point result.
3. TD awards prize to Player A; Player B does not win any prize.

Question:

Is this a reasonable restriction for an Organizer to impose ( done prior to the tournament )?

Bob, CCC Coordinator

[John Upper]

Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Failure to Play Last Round.

The TD treated the request for the bye as a " withdrawal ", and noted " U " ( = withdrawal ) on the chart for the 5th round.

Why would the TD count it as a withdrawl rather than as a zero point bye??

AFAIK, you can request a bye for any round, but you just can't expect a 1/2-point for a bye in the "money rounds".

FWIW, I've been told that European tournaments don't give 1/2 points for byes: if you want the round off you get zero points.

[Felix Dumont]

Re : CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest - Failure to Play Last Round.

The player should definitely have won a prize. If the arbiter has an own rule regarding the last round, he should have advertized it. Otherwise, such a rule would not be valid. I don't know what exactly the CFC rules says about that, but the FQE rules (which greatly look alike the French rules) allow last round byes (0 point), as long as they are requested before the start of the tournament.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Failure to Play Last Round - Is Restriction a Good One?

Did this happen or are you posing a hypothetical?

For a player like me, who has told opponents begging for a draw in lost positions to play the game or get out, having a player drop out of an event in the last round leaving me with the prize is like a wet dream.

There are things omitted from your original post. Such as if the player asked for the last round bye or simply didn't show up. If the TD told the player he would be withdrawn for not showing up.