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Its all good and nice to be against capitalism but it is clear from every example of "socialism" experienced in the real world outside the realm of fiction that it just creates a different 1% who tend to be stupid and thuggish and unafraid of using violence to enforce their will.
The funny thing is with these sorts if they ever manage to gain power, that soon enough they go after the useful idiots who helped them get there so there is usually some poetic justice in the end.
The 1% in socialism are called the red bourgois. I have it on good authority that in Yugoslavia they busied themselves thinking up new ways of kickbacks and corruption. When they weren't doing that they were eating bear steaks in special clubs reserved for them and listening to half naked female singers. Tito had more hunting lodges, villas and the like reserved for his own personal use than he could ever have visited in a life time. They interviewed the caretakers of many of them who hadn't seen Tito in years but kept the place up just in case. Not bad for a guy with a grade 4 education. Who only came to power because Churchill believed the British double agents/communist sympathizers who sent back false reports of Tito's effectiveness against the Nazis.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Friday, 4th May, 2012, 02:24 PM.
Do you think the movement in Canada is being funded and if so by whom? To me it looks like an attempt to attack the system as a whole rather than random events.
Do you think the movement in Canada is being funded and if so by whom? To me it looks like an attempt to attack the system as a whole rather than random events.
No I don't think it's being funded by anyone in particular. In some ways its funded by our own tax dollars. When I was an OW caseworker I met many a client who was a self appointed activist and who had no interest in ever leaving OW or finding employment. It was not unusual for them to be on OW for a solid 10 or 15 years without interuption and devoted full time to staying on OW and fighting for their cause. There are also other groups that have non-profit status that may be providing funding. Some are funded by universities as student clubs or were specifically individually funded by student fees following referendum to approve their funding. Many receive government funding as community organizations. There may be various unions donating members funds as well following votes at membership meetings, which if experience is anything to go by might be less than 1% of the membership actually attending. The usual self appointed activists are always there. I've been to some of their events to hear them preach to the choir. Nothing different than usual. I'm not against protests I'm only against mob violence and those apologists outside the OWS movement who try to sugar coat what the OWS movement stands for as if it's not plain to see. So that when you point out what the movement clearly appears to stand for, such as mob violence in the streets of Quebec and the usurping of rights of students who don't support them, these apologists try to play spin doctor. One calls the student walkout a union action and legitimate strike (presumably under the pertinent labour legislation), the other one denies it has any communist ideology. With the admission that he is not quite sure what that means exactly because Wikipedia has too many warning labels.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Friday, 4th May, 2012, 02:45 PM.
I'm in for the long haul, and I won't waiver or go wobbly, even if the polls don't show what is inevitably going to happen.
Bob
Glad to hear that, Bob. Bob Rae winning the liberal leadership and the next federal election doesn't count as a NDP win. The next leader of the Liberals is unknown. That Trudeau fellow looked pretty good pounding on the Conservative senator in the big punch up on The Hill. It might play well with the voters if he wins the leadership.
You are right that I was somewhat inaccurate. In stating that the Occupy Toronto were targeting a capitalist symbol ( Barrick ), I should have explained that it was, for the majority, for the purpose of achieving a " modified capitalism ", with a more favourable distribution of the wealth being created by the system - stop the 1% plundering. I think this likely puts Bob G and I on the same page - he can advise if we still see it differently.
Yes Bob, we are on the same page. :)
It would seem Jerry can only see Red and Black, no shades of grey, no volume control, to quote you "no sense of proportion". Instead he goes on and on, and on, and on, and on.
what I think is that you do not completely know the definitions of the words you are using. What I was taught many years ago was that a simple way of describing political & economic order was to consider two axes, the political system and the economic system.
Axis 1 Political: democracy versus totalitarianism
Axis 2 Economic: capitalism versus socialism
with:
capitalism + totalitarianism = fascism
socialism + totalitarianism = communism
socialism + democracy = social democracy
capitalism + democracy = that of the US & Canada as examples.
Of course this is pretty black and white and there are degrees of everything but the point is that socialism/capitalism is an economic description and democracy/totalitarianism is a political description.
So, when you say "not to replace capitalism with socialism, but .... moving to a social democracy" you are not making any sense.
Socialism is an emotional word to scare Americans, those godless communists will take away our religion and freedom. There is a big difference between Socialists governments and Social Democrats. In Marxist-Leninist Socialism the government owns the means of production and results in the dictatorship of the corrupt Communist Party, a ‘temporary” state that’s been called State Capitalism or Stalinism until the world turns communist (Trotskyism). In Canada’s history the Communist Party (funded by USSR) once allied with Conservatives to defeat the Social Democrats (CCF) as Social Democrats are only reformers, capitalism with compassion, while the commies wanted unemployment and starvation as motivation for the poor to revolt and overthrow capitalism. Social Democrats are political parties that sometimes form governments, or the opposition in a democracy; they don’t dissolve the parliament. We live in a mixed economy, not free enterprise, where the government does invest in the economy and sometimes own part of a bank or industry. There are limits on making money that create social disasters; There’s a balancing act between private profit and the public interest. Capitalism has its up and downs, and needs to have a consumer market with money to spend and a supply of labour on hand. Capitalism benefits from the social stability that social programs provide. Social Democrats strive to help the less fortunate in down times, but often create an expensive bureaucracy which never goes down.
It would seem Jerry can only see Red and Black, no shades of grey, no volume control, to quote you "no sense of proportion". Instead he goes on and on, and on, and on, and on.
Yup so does the OWS movemement in their anti-capitalist tirade and their attempt to use mob violence to undermine our society. When they pack up, so will I. When the so-called students in Quebec stop using mob-violence over a $325/year tuition increase then I'll stop discussing it. The one thing I have in common with activists is that we don't give up or tire easily. This is a long haul issue. If you have a short attention span then feel free to tune out. Your claims to be able to define what the OWS movement stands for are transparently lacking. You are not even part of the movement in any significant way that would afford you the position of claiming to speak for it. And with the other Bob it took a long time for him to even acknowledge that students who want to attend classes have any rights at all. He even tried to claim that they were basically the equivalent of union members crossing the picket line during a lawful labour dispute. Maybe you two should actually read what Felix has told us. It is outrageous. However, you seem to tune it out because it does not support your message. Do you have any sense of proportion left or is it all just 1% versus the 99% propoganda. That seems to be the only filter you are seeing the world through now. To the point where you don't even remark or seem to care when students are attacked and threatened for having a differing opinion. I ask again where are their rights. Do you and Bob know what they are, do you even care?
So when you have to spin doctor to deny that the movement saying they are targeting a symbol of Capitalism means they are against Capitalism, it just makes me wonder. Even you two should see how lame your explanation is. Ironically if I was out in the streets of Toronto or Montreal as a protestor you would be applauding both my lack of volume control and my 'red & black' 99% propoganda.
Well at least you are not making false accusations against me any more by claiming that I called you a 'communist thug'.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Saturday, 5th May, 2012, 02:16 AM.
The one thing I have in common with activists is that we don't give up or tire easily. This is a long haul issue. If you have a short attention span then feel free to tune out.
So, you always have to have the last word, right? Well, okay. So if I don't respond to your rants, it does not mean I agree with you, it just means I don't need to get in the last word. :)
Your claims to be able to define what the OWS movement stands for are transparently lacking. You are not even part of the movement in any significant way that would afford you the position of claiming to speak for it.
As I have stated repeatedly, I do not claim to speak for the OWS movement. In fact, nobody claims to speak for it. Nevertheless, I do follow their progress and enjoy debating the issues. This apparently gets your shorts in a knot. Relax dude.
Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Saturday, 5th May, 2012, 11:00 AM.
So, you always have to have the last word, right? Well, okay. So if I don't respond to your rants, it does not mean I agree with you, it just means I don't need to get in the last word. :)
As I have stated repeatedly, I do not claim to speak for the OWS movement. In fact, nobody claims to speak for it. Nevertheless, I do follow their progress and enjoy debating the issues. This apparently gets your shorts in a knot. Relax dude.
You too dude. Relax. I enjoy debating the issue too. I don't enjoy the ad hominem attacks when you run out of anything substantial to say.
... As I have stated repeatedly, I do not claim to speak for the OWS movement. In fact, nobody claims to speak for it. ...
I agree and I like the way Naomi Klein describes OWS - a howl against social injustice. Not enough organization (yet) to really qualify it as a 'movement.'
... Nevertheless, I do follow their progress and enjoy debating the issues. ...
Same here, and the same applies to many others! It's not about cottages in Muskoka for everyone, or 6,000 sq ft homes, or Maseratis for everyone. It's about social justice, the ability to lead a dignified life on an income that is fair for what you're doing. It's also about accountability for the 1%. If you want the wealth and power to ruin millions of other lives then you'd better be prepared to pay big if you screw up.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
It's about social justice, the ability to lead a dignified life on an income that is fair for what you're doing. It's also about accountability for the 1%. If you want the wealth and power to ruin millions of other lives then you'd better be prepared to pay big if you screw up.
How come people want to buy cheap imported goods from retailers who employ help for minimum or slightly higher wages? Why don't they insist on buying Canadian made and manufactured goods from Canadian owned stores?
What do you suppose would happen to places like financial institutions if that 1% were to leave for other places and take their money with them?
Anytime 1% of the population is being blamed for the problems of the other 99% it's just plain wrong. What kind of social justice is there when a person isn't judged individually rather than in a class based on net worth?
How come people want to buy cheap imported goods from retailers who employ help for minimum or slightly higher wages? Why don't they insist on buying Canadian made and manufactured goods from Canadian owned stores? Good questions. I don't have the answers.
What do you suppose would happen to places like financial institutions if that 1% were to leave for other places and take their money with them? I don't know. Is this a concern you have? If the middle classes continue to disappear, what do you see as the final outcome down the road, Gary? Slavery for the 99%?
Anytime 1% of the population is being blamed for the problems of the other 99% it's just plain wrong. What kind of social justice is there when a person isn't judged individually rather than in a class based on net worth? I was using '1%' figuratively rather than literally. I'm talking about people being held accountable for their actions, Gary. That includes the wealthy and powerful.
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"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas De Quincey
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