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CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest -What Is The Future Of Chess?
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my conversations with people reveal this: that upon finding that the strongest player in the world is a computer, this has a visible effect/reaction on people and does diminish their view of chess/chessplayers. i also took a moment to extend this by way of conjecture that solving chess would have a similar effect.
...
In the defence of chess (or checkers!) players, I would like to remind chesstalkers that on the old chesstalk message board, years ago I posited that computers in effect cheat when they play chess, by looking at more than one board at a time, moving the pieces, looking up opening theory or using tablebases, all of which is prohibited for human players [edit: except for correspondence chess players, or in man+machine exhibitions].
I recall one poster arguing with me, but when I posted a poll on whether computers 'cheat', the vast majority of respondents agreed.
A little explanation of the rules and the difference between human and computer 'thought' might help with chess PR.
Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Thursday, 18th October, 2012, 12:41 AM.
Re: Re : Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest -What Is The Future Of Chess?
It seems to me that Kevin is correct.
The Windsor chess teachers/ club organizers seem to have done an amazing job of junior development in the city - it is likely one of the foremost cities in Canada in terms of chess growth. And they have developed junior/ chess junior parents desiring to play in major national and provincial tournaments - a good chess junior with a good result DOES often interest the media, especially where you have made prior contacts with them.
I think the Windsor situation is not duplicated very many other places in Canada at the moment. Not that there aren't good junior programs elsewhere, but they are not as highly visible, and do not match the growth numbers.
Actually, no. The 605 million refers to people who play chess regularly, like every month, and not once or twice a year. Read the article and the connecting links, m'kay?
i did. here's a cut and paste: "Most surprising is the percentage of adults who actually currently play chess (either weekly, monthly or during the past year)".
In any case, "serious" chess rests on the foundation of millions of ordinary players who never aspire to the heights of chess prowess.
this is quite a good point, and may completely over-ride other considerations in this discussion. the problem is the relationship between the apparently healthy number of recreational players and purported dwindling number of organized serious players is very hard to establish or quantify. if bob is right, then this situation is hard to explain.
Bob's shopping list of questions for chess doesn't include, moreover, any substantiation of his claim that global chess has "been in decline" since 2000. Where is his data to support such a claim? Where is yours?
i don't recall claiming that chess was on the decline. it probably is at the moment. i don't care if someone thinks i have to prove it. it doesn't matter to me if it is in fact not on the decline, as a retired player. presuming bob's premise that it is, i merely added that my conversations with people reveal this: that upon finding that the strongest player in the world is a computer, this has a visible effect/reaction on people and does diminish their view of chess/chessplayers. i also took a moment to extend this by way of conjecture that solving chess would have a similar effect.
read my posts again, "m'kay" ?
Last edited by David Bowers; Wednesday, 17th October, 2012, 11:18 PM.
Reason: accidentally left out part of a nigel quote
...
In Canada, have we not been lamenting the diappearance of chess columns from our local newspapers?
...
Sadly, checkers columns seem to have long ago died out from being carried in newspapers. I would have enjoyed reading them, as I occasionally play someone casually, who hardly flinched when I told him the game was solved some years ago.
In Ottawa the Citizen newspaper dropped it's chess column some years ago, but it has naturally kept the Bridge column, which its editor probably assumed had a greater following. However, I suspect that newspapers are having to make all kinds of cutbacks, including to chess columns, more due to the internet and the economy than to a perceived dying interest by the public in chess.
Re: Re : Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest -What Is The Future Of Chess?
I'd like to reiterate that the article posted is not mine. The author is Cooperative Chess Coalition ( CCC ) member, Abbey Alo, from Ghana. And I have alerted him to the request for evidence that chess has been in decline since 2000, when Kramnik won the crown. And I'll advise when I receive an answer.
But what I think is also important is that the mainstream media coverage of chess has been in decline. I'm sure a suvey of mainstream media in North America, at least, would confirm this. In Canada, have we not been lamenting the diappearance of chess columns from our local newspapers? As CFC Public Relations Coordinator, I can advise that chess in the mainstream media is a tough sell.
I asked on the Facebook chess discussion board of CCC, the following:
" what do you think would be the first CONCRETE STEP for your country federation to take to start on a road to making chess a more popular mainstream passtime IN YOUR COUNTRY, and to get it mainstream news coverage? "
I think this is a logical supplementary question to Abbey's questions in the original post.
so, you're seriously NOT drawing a distinction between kitchen chess with grandpa and his grandson played like twice a year (with queens & kings on the wrong start squares etc) with serious organized chess?? you lump them in the same pot? you see, grandpa and his grandson are the people included in your 600 million.
Actually, no. The 605 million refers to people who play chess regularly, like every month, and not once or twice a year. Read the article and the connecting links, m'kay?
In any case, "serious" chess rests on the foundation of millions of ordinary players who never aspire to the heights of chess prowess. Bob's shopping list of questions for chess doesn't include, moreover, any substantiation of his claim that global chess has "been in decline" since 2000. Where is his data to support such a claim? Where is yours?
so, you're seriously NOT drawing a distinction between kitchen chess with grandpa and his grandson played like twice a year (with queens & kings on the wrong start squares etc) with serious organized chess?? you lump them in the same pot? you see, grandpa and his grandson are the people included in your 600 million.
i think bob was referring to serious chess here.
To try to help put things in some perspective, poker stats I've seen online (100 million people playing worldwide, 60% of which are US players) no doubt include estimated casual poker play by the public.
At least the public is still playing chess (their way, ahem), in spite of computers.
Predictions about the "demise" of chess, like those of the death of Mark Twain, are greatly exaggerated.
Actually, you're way off here. According to a serious promoter of chess, over 600 million people worldwide play chess on a regular basis. That's an enormous number.
so, you're seriously NOT drawing a distinction between kitchen chess with grandpa and his grandson played like twice a year (with queens & kings on the wrong start squares etc) with serious organized chess?? you lump them in the same pot? you see, grandpa and his grandson are the people included in your 600 million.
aspects of computing are getting so advanced that the role of the speed of light as a limiting factor in computation speed is proportionally greater all the time. i understand that different computing forms are being researched and when they come online, this factor will be overcome and chess will be solved in short order.
If that's all the case, even Double chess or Shogi will be solved soon enough, I suppose.
However, there's always the possibility of divine intervention before we possibly blow ourselves up, and/or our own none-too well thought out inventions or practices like computers, AI, etc. wreak untold havoc.
... we have motorized vehicles that move faster than runners; we have boats that move faster than swimmers; yet, we still watch the races. this never even seems a talking point.
Predictions about the "demise" of chess, like those of the death of Mark Twain, are greatly exaggerated.
i'm sure there are math boards on the internet "how can we make math more popular among the public?" etc. chess, like math is a difficult activity, intensely rewarding to people of a certain intellect and personality type. it will always be popular only to a tiny fraction of people, and like the recent shortening of time controls, the imminent solving of chess won't help this situation!
Actually, you're way off here. According to a serious promoter of chess, over 600 million people worldwide play chess on a regular basis. That's an enormous number.
See the article on ChessBase over here for confirmation of the numbers.
My own prediction is that just as chess outlived the feudal age into which it was born, it will outlive our own age into the murky future we cannot see. Winston Churchill once said, famously, that if the British Empire lasted for a thousand years then it's finest hour would still be the Battle of Britain. The British Empire toppled over in Egypt within a decade or so, and the new American Empire took its place. In contrast, chess has already lasted one and a half thousand years and I rather expect that over the next 500 years it will eventually be included in the curriculum of the educational system of most countries.
One anonymous techie once tried to explain to me that the speed electrons pass a given point, and then can be read, would make a 32-piece tablebase (solving chess) impossible. :
i don't understand that sentence.
aspects of computing are getting so advanced that the role of the speed of light as a limiting factor in computation speed is proportionally greater all the time. i understand that different computing forms are being researched and when they come online, this factor will be overcome and chess will be solved in short order.
we have motorized vehicles that move faster than runners; we have boats that move faster than swimmers; yet, we still watch the races. this never even seems a talking point.
yet, when a member of the public finds out that the strongest chess player on the planet is a computer, this usually does in fact diminish their view or image of chess. i know - i've had enough such conversations.
people are worried about the popularity of chess. people on this board make suggestions all the time on how to promote chess. more or less though, in the west, it's only high profile players who capture the media's attention who truly affect chess popularity at any moment.
i'm sure there are math boards on the internet "how can we make math more popular among the public?" etc. chess, like math is a difficult activity, intensely rewarding to people of a certain intellect and personality type. it will always be popular only to a tiny fraction of people, and like the recent shortening of time controls, the imminent solving of chess won't help this situation!
Sadly, chess should be solved by computers in a couple of years. Estimates usually range from 10 to 20 years, maximum... People will still be able to play, as no one can really learn all the variations by heart, but it will definitely relegate chess as a solved game, like checkers...
One anonymous techie once tried to explain to me that the speed electrons pass a given point, and then can be read, would make a 32-piece tablebase (solving chess) impossible. That's if I recall his drift.
Re : Re: CCC Discusses Chess - Posts of Interest -What Is The Future Of Chess?
Sadly, chess should be solved by computers in a couple of years. Estimates usually range from 10 to 20 years, maximum... People will still be able to play, as no one can really learn all the variations by heart, but it will definitely relegate chess as a solved game, like checkers...
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