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Actually Bob if you are a tax evader and don't report your income to CRA there is no basis for you to contribute to CPP or an RSP. Zero reported income means zero contribution calculation. You also can't apply for a loan or mortgage because you have no acceptable proof of income for a bank. Once you decide to go outlaw you cut yourself out of the normal financial system. Maybe try to the loan shark down the street. Although I'm not completely sure I also seem to remember that if you get into a car accident you lose out on income replacement.
Of course once you start down this road there is also the temptation to try to get public housing or other subsidies because you can claim to have no income. With such long waiting lists for public housing it would be a shame if someone tax evaded themselves into a spot ahead of someone who is honest about their income.
Contributing to your own RSP instead of CPP is the difference between a defined contribution plan and a defined benefit plan. Most people do not want to take their chances on a defined contribution plan because to quote Forest Gump you never know what you are going to get. Most people prefer a defined benefit plan where they know what they are going to get.
As an aside someone with a company pension cannot put that much away in an RSP because the pension contribution limit includes both money put into a company plan by them and their employer and their RSP contribution. Otherwise the system would greatly favour those with a company pension if they could put as much into an RSP as someone without a plan and enjoy both a maximum RSP and a company pension on top of that.
Jerry did you miss this part of my post:
'For the record...I am not condoning this practice'
'For the record...I am not condoning this practice'
Larry
That statement is inconsistent with your statement that you admire them. That would be like someone saying they don't condone what Conrad Black did but they admire him. However, I take your point. Perhaps I am overly sensitive to the issue because I am taking my financial ethics class this term and we are examining all sorts of behaviour to sort through the ethical issues.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Sunday, 10th February, 2013, 09:26 AM.
Wow! I never would have guessed so high, Larry. I guess I'm the idiot who files his returns, stops working at $29xxx so as not to pay HST, etc. At least if you are filing a return definitely get an accountant. It is incredible the stuff you can deduct when you are self-employed.
Banks are a lot less conservative than most people would expect, at least in my experience. Penny (who is also self-employed) and I went to the bank and they barely glanced at our income tax forms before offering us a loan of roughly **eight** times our combined annual pre-tax income. Banks are like crack dealers and low-interest loans are their product. We took a much smaller loan but only because the money we have earmarked for the house is earning about 2% more than the interest on the loan. When rates finally rise the house gets paid off. ;-)
I consider CPP a Ponzi Scheme. I am sure I will be able to collect ... probably around age 80. As for OAS, I expect to fail the means testing by the time I am eligible to collect. This socializing of benefits rewards people who blow through money and penalizes savers. It's not a mystery to me why under this scenario people are going to cheat.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
Wow! I never would have guessed so high, Larry. I guess I'm the idiot who files his returns, stops working at $29xxx so as not to pay HST, etc. At least if you are filing a return definitely get an accountant. It is incredible the stuff you can deduct when you are self-employed.
Banks are a lot less conservative than most people would expect, at least in my experience. Penny (who is also self-employed) and I went to the bank and they barely glanced at our income tax forms before offering us a loan of roughly **eight** times our combined annual pre-tax income. Banks are like crack dealers and low-interest loans are their product. We took a much smaller loan but only because the money we have earmarked for the house is earning about 2% more than the interest on the loan. When rates finally rise the house gets paid off. ;-)
I consider CPP a Ponzi Scheme. I am sure I will be able to collect ... probably around age 80. As for OAS, I expect to fail the means testing by the time I am eligible to collect. This socializing of benefits rewards people who blow through money and penalizes savers. It's not a mystery to me why under this scenario people are going to cheat.
You make a good point Tom
Kind of unfortunate that anybody would be offered a loan they could or may not be able to afford to pay down. This is a big cause of the market crash in 2008, sub-prime mortgage loans. Of course the blame also rests somewhat with consumers who don't have the most basic of financial management skills, and think that a bank or lending institution knows or cares about how you should be budgeting you money.
In theory they should know because they are lending their capital, but if history is any indication this is not how things have worked in practice. Everybody should prepare for negative contingencies when budgeting, few do...
I had a couple of arguments with chess teachers in the past. I could understand if someone that gave one or two lessons a week online might not declare the revenues, as it does not represent much, but for someone who does this full-time, it is definitely unethical... Some have considerable revenues from chess lessons and still get money from social welfare.
Kind of unfortunate that anybody would be offered a loan they could or may not be able to afford to pay down. This is a big cause of the market crash in 2008, sub-prime mortgage loans. Of course the blame also rests somewhat with consumers who don't have the most basic of financial management skills, and think that a bank or lending institution knows or cares about how you should be budgeting you money.
In theory they should know because they are lending their capital, but if history is any indication this is not how things have worked in practice. Everybody should prepare for negative contingencies when budgeting, few do...
That was the problem in the US, the banks were not lending their own capital as they were selling the sub-prime mortgages on as securitized debt obligations. To be fair they were not totally clueless as the mortgage backed securities were over collateralized and tranched into differing risk profiles depending on where in the stream of payments they were. However that was soon overcome with the reality of how deep the non-performing loans reached.
Although I think it would be unfair to call Tom & spouse sub-prime loan types. And they did get an income tax return to verify the total income. As well what kind of loan are we talking about? A mortgage 8x your annual income would not be that out of line as it is payed over such a long period of time. Inflation is also on the borrowers side when looking at a 25 year mortgage. Banks get criticized when they don't lend and criticized when they do lend.
But have faith Tom I have known people who have made much more of annual income than $29000 who received full OAS and none of it was clawed back. Perhaps you are thinking of GIS? If CPP is a ponzi scheme which by definition is not able to make any payments at all then so is every pension fund out there. Yet people still like the idea of having pensions.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Sunday, 10th February, 2013, 02:37 PM.
People liked investing with Bernie Madoff for decades until there were no greater fools left. A Ponzi Scheme eventually collapses. It may take decades but at some point you run out of people willing to join.
For many loans banks insist on CMHC insurance. It's not insurance for the borrower; it's insurance for the banks. CMHC's float is tiny and when the real estate bubble pops the taxpayers are going to be on the hook. Again, savers are penalized and speculators have a free lunch. There is no way that banks should be lending to anyone who can't make a reasonable downpayment. I would say 40% is quite reasonable, especially in an era of over-priced housing. In the present "emergency" interest rate environment the money is cheap. However, nothing lasts forever. Interest rates have been in double digits before and they will be again. What happens when people who got say 2.5% loans are suddenly faced with 12.5%? KaBOOM is what will happen. People in Canada are even stupider than Americans. We learned nothing from them.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
Ontario is different than most of the U.S. In the U.S. the liability is limited to the house. In Ontario they can go after other assets to recover loses. Alberta is much like the U.S. as far as I know. Unless a house is CMHC insured the loss is limited to the asset and not a buyers other assets as well.
It's been a few years since I looked at it so could be off on some points.
If you have maxed out credits cards, large car loan, etc. and they are offering that kind of mortgage loan maybe you have a point. If you have little or no debts, a good record, and are putting down at least 20% that's a bit different.
The Americans were said to be dealing with NINJA loans.
Regarding the CPP, would you give us your opinion of the QPP? :)
People liked investing with Bernie Madoff for decades until there were no greater fools left. A Ponzi Scheme eventually collapses. It may take decades but at some point you run out of people willing to join.
For many loans banks insist on CMHC insurance. It's not insurance for the borrower; it's insurance for the banks. CMHC's float is tiny and when the real estate bubble pops the taxpayers are going to be on the hook. Again, savers are penalized and speculators have a free lunch. There is no way that banks should be lending to anyone who can't make a reasonable downpayment. I would say 40% is quite reasonable, especially in an era of over-priced housing. In the present "emergency" interest rate environment the money is cheap. However, nothing lasts forever. Interest rates have been in double digits before and they will be again. What happens when people who got say 2.5% loans are suddenly faced with 12.5%? KaBOOM is what will happen. People in Canada are even stupider than Americans. We learned nothing from them.
With a 40% down payment requirement you are just advantaging the already wealthy. I'm sure they would like to continue collecting rent instead of seeing people buy their own homes. You are disadvantaging renters who don't own their own home yet. Under the O'Donnell scheme the rich would get richer and the poor would get poorer. 12.5% is not that high an interest rate. People have owned homes before and made their payments at that rate in the past. It's fine to say that interest rates will get to high interest rates in the future with absolute certainty but could you tell me when that will be?
People loved Madoff because they were naive and greedy enough to believe that some smart guy could magically beat the market year in and year out. Without asking how. They were naive and perhaps had too much belief in the superiority of those with the same ethnic background as themselves.
Unlike Madoff, CPP is actually invested and the reporting is correct. Your level of comfort or caution about when you want to buy a home or how much risk you want to take on when you invest is not the view of all investors. It is not one size fits all.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Sunday, 10th February, 2013, 07:25 PM.
People voted against tax deductible mortgages in Canada. Mostly those who were renting didn't want to pay for those who had bought and those who already owned their homes felt the same way.
One of the reasons Joe Clark didn't get re-elected.
People voted against tax deductible mortgages in Canada. Mostly those who were renting didn't want to pay for those who had bought and those who already owned their homes felt the same way.
One of the reasons Joe Clark didn't get re-elected.
But guess what interest on rental property is tax deductible. Just another way the rich would get richer if down payments were required to be 40%.
Personally I don't see any reason mortgage interest should be tax deductible for owner occupied homes. There is already a 100% capital gains exemption for such homes.
Although there are still ways to borrow against your home to invest and then deduct the interest against any investment income.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Sunday, 10th February, 2013, 08:01 PM.
But guess what interest on rental property is tax deductible. Just another way the rich would get richer if down payments were required to be 40%.
Personally I don't see any reason mortgage interest should be tax deductible for owner occupied homes. There is already a 100% capital gains exemption for such homes.
I never suggested down payments be 40%. Simply because a person ends up owing more on a property than it's worth doesn't mean s/he will walk away from it. It mostly makes sense to keep paying the mortgage and wait for the prices to come back up. They always have in the past.
I don't see why child care should be tax deductible. When my kids were young I had to pay for that.
In case you're unaware, not that I would ever suggest such a thing :), more and more real estate like large rental apartment buildings are going into REITS (real estate investment trusts) and those with RRSP's and who belong to pension plans are holding them for the income and appreciation. It would surprise me if government workers pension funds didn't own such REITS.
So, really, who are the rich? Maybe it depends where you rent, by your definition.
I never suggested down payments be 40%. Simply because a person ends up owing more on a property than it's worth doesn't mean s/he will walk away from it. It mostly makes sense to keep paying the mortgage and wait for the prices to come back up. They always have in the past.
I don't see why child care should be tax deductible. When my kids were young I had to pay for that.
In case you're unaware, not that I would ever suggest such a thing :), more and more real estate like large rental apartment buildings are going into REITS (real estate investment trusts) and those with RRSP's and who belong to pension plans are holding them for the income and appreciation. It would surprise me if government workers pension funds didn't own such REITS.
So, really, who are the rich? Maybe it depends where you rent, by your definition.
I was referring to Tom's comments about the 40%. But I guess perhaps I should only refer to comments by one person at a time.
It would surprise me if any pension funds were not diversified and REITS were only a small part of their holdings.
The rich generally are those that can invest in hedge funds that can realize greater returns than pension funds are even allowed to try for. The rich generally don't rely on government workers pension funds to see them through retirement.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Monday, 11th February, 2013, 12:00 AM.
It would surprise me if any pension funds were not diversified and REITS were only a small part of their holdings.
They are still getting richer on the money from the renters. In any case, you don't know the percentage of the holdings in the pension funds. Maybe it's small and maybe it's not.
I thought most of the rich had left. Maybe that's why I have a hard time finding goods Made in Canada.
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