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Generally I favour women-only tournaments, as a legitimate sub-group tournament.
In the case of the WYCC however, I see very negative consequences of there being two simultaneous parallel tournaments - "open youth" / "girls' youth".
The first problem is that girls are forced to choose between them, and there are institutional incentives to the girls to choose the girls' sections.
Secondly, the progress being made in chess by junior girls is unable to be promoted, because they are not winning the "open" titles, when they well might, if they played there.
So in this particular case, I do see a need to eliminate the girls' sections in order to help promote women's chess.
Bob A
So the short answer is that yes you are arguing contrary points. The ancient Greeks called that sophistry. Not a bad thing; it takes real skill in rhetoric as you've just demonstrated. Just not a thing that philosophers typically engage in.
So the short answer is that yes you are arguing contrary points. The ancient Greeks called that sophistry. Not a bad thing; it takes real skill in rhetoric as you've just demonstrated. Just not a thing that philosophers typically engage in.
Hi Jerry:
I think what you find somewhat confusing, is that you see me as "ideological", whereas I am "pragmatic".
Last time I asked, I recall being told that the age for Seniors Championships had been raised to 60 (at least for Canada & World Seniors Ch.). I had asked because I was soon to be 50 myself.
Looks like you are right. http://www.chessfest.ca/cansenior.html
Although to me a senior is at least 65. More likely I consider someone a senior at 75. With an ageing population they probably had enough entries to be able to raise the age. There really doesn't seem to be any scientific basis for the age they set as 'senior'. To me they just set and change the age on the basis of attracting enough entrants. You can argue a seniors tournament for something like tennis, for former players or even so players who haven't taken up the sport until much later in life, since ageing does lead to less ability to compete physically head to head with 20 somethings. But for chess? A reduction in mental ability often does not come until after 75. I mean in Canada judges can and often do serve until they reach 75. Who wants to be the one to tell all the supreme court justices that they are past it?
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Monday, 8th April, 2013, 12:30 PM.
'Hi I'm Ms. So and So. I'm so happy to be a W-Yada-Title. My life was ruined when I got born into the wrong gender. My brain just counld't handle the workload that chess requires. Oh my god I've even had to to write the moves...and play a tournament game at the same time.
But ever since the CFC created these wonderful W-titles I can finally pretend I've accomplished something coz before it was just TOOOOOOO hard. Just the other day I broke nail when I had to open a book. Forget that. Now all I have to do wait until the bar gets lowered again.
Studies show that chess helps you get way smarter than you ever could have been. This is great if you're a girl. Now there's hope for a brighter future...
So play chess! and join the CFC!'
Lol :)
Seriously, as the Women's coordinator herself recognized, in defending this motion that she seconded, there may be at least some women who are offended by the CFCs new titles for female players.
As an aside, women, or perhaps even girls, regarding all sorts of women's issues, are a very divided camp as far as I can tell. Perhaps moreso than men when it comes to such issues. There's REAL women, feminists...
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
I think what you find somewhat confusing, is that you see me as "ideological", whereas I am "pragmatic".
Bob A
If there is confusion on my part, I think it's caused by you. Your self marketing and how you sold the purpose of CCC always seemed to me to be that you wanted the establish the best ideal conditions for chess. Now you tell me that you are a snake oil salesman who has no specific ideals. So be it. Another reason for me to be glad that I withdrew from my (minimal at best) involvement in the CCC. Perhaps Spragget was right, the CCC is just one man, namely you.
Generally what you find about those that call themselves pragmatists is that they can sell and argue anything by claiming to be pragmatists. They can argue for 'sub-group' tournaments in one case while at the same time arguing against them.
Re: Why I Supported The Motion For Womens CFC Titles
[QUOTE=Zeljko Kitich;66510]... the CCC is just one man, namely you.QUOTE]
I think the other three equal members of the Cooperative Chess Coalition (we are a cooperative where each of us is equal, with one vote) may beg to differ.
I think the other three equal members of the Cooperative Chess Coalition (we are a cooperative where each of us is equal, with one vote) may beg to differ.
Bob A
By all means let them differ. I am eager to hear from them. After all, according to you, they are putting forward reasoned and considered proposals, that to my mind in many cases would have a profound and deep affect on the Canadian chess scene, if adopted by the CFC or FIDE. Certainly we should hear from them.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Monday, 8th April, 2013, 01:15 PM.
I do urge that this motion be approved, it will be a great motivator for women in chess. How many active women are currently over 2100 CFC and less than 2200 CFC? Perhaps 3. 3 out of 100 women on the active list. That is 3%. What is so wrong with having another handful of women striving to achieve that goal (of the ones over 2000 CFC) and another perhaps 10 that are currently over 1900? How can anyone think it's detrimental to women's Canadian chess?
Canadian chess has limited resources; any project undertaken is resources used that cannot be used for other projects. The CFC should not devote resources to possibly giving slightly more incentive to a specific group of 10 players (who are already experienced tournament players who are unlikely to make a "play or not play" decision on the basis of a meaningless title) simply because they were born female. There are plenty of gender neutral titles they are capable of achieving if that is what they are motivated by.
A CFC initiative that will increase female membership substantially is certainly worth pursuing. This is not that initiative, and that is why I think it is a poor motion.
Maybe CFC should contact (a poll?!) the female members of the federation and ask for inputs about this topic.
This seems easier said than done. As a former CFC V-P commented to me, even if the Women's coordinator sent out emails etc. across the country and got at least some responses, the results might not be a representaive sample of the majority of female player CFC members (let alone those females yet to possibly join the CFC).
Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Monday, 8th April, 2013, 02:21 PM.
Reason: Spelling
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
Canadian chess has limited resources; any project undertaken is resources used that cannot be used for other projects. The CFC should not devote resources to possibly giving slightly more incentive to a specific group of 10 players (who are already experienced tournament players who are unlikely to make a "play or not play" decision on the basis of a meaningless title) simply because they were born female. There are plenty of gender neutral titles they are capable of achieving if that is what they are motivated by.
A CFC initiative that will increase female membership substantially is certainly worth pursuing. This is not that initiative, and that is why I think it is a poor motion.
There was some discussion at the online meeting of how much trouble it would be to the office to monitor these new titles. The one opinion I vaguely recall is that it would probably not be much trouble.
Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Monday, 8th April, 2013, 01:53 PM.
Reason: Spelling
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
More likely I consider someone a senior at 75. With an ageing population they probably had enough entries to be able to raise the age.
What percentage of the population lives to more than 75?
We all know of people who are in their 90's and over 100 but I don't think it's the norm. Mostly it helps bring up the average life expectancy. The mean must be at least 5 years less.
Probably there are around 5 to 7 percent of the population in Canada over 75, not counting future projection which may or may not be right. Google should give the statscan figures, I guess.
Canadian chess has limited resources; any project undertaken is resources used that cannot be used for other projects. The CFC should not devote resources to possibly giving slightly more incentive to a specific group of 10 players (who are already experienced tournament players who are unlikely to make a "play or not play" decision on the basis of a meaningless title) simply because they were born female. There are plenty of gender neutral titles they are capable of achieving if that is what they are motivated by.
A CFC initiative that will increase female membership substantially is certainly worth pursuing. This is not that initiative, and that is why I think it is a poor motion.
In effect the resources required is a small HTML edit. The lower certificate is pay as you go. The WNM certificate is free so we are investing $10 per instance in forgone fees. Real cost is an envelope and a stamp and whatever the certificate paper and toner for the certificate cost in each instance.
What percentage of the population lives to more than 75?
We all know of people who are in their 90's and over 100 but I don't think it's the norm. Mostly it helps bring up the average life expectancy. The mean must be at least 5 years less.
Probably there are around 5 to 7 percent of the population in Canada over 75, not counting future projection which may or may not be right. Google should give the statscan figures, I guess.
Stats Can and any insurance mortality tables will give that to you. Senior is a relative term. If you want to hand out senior discounts, then sure give me mine at 50. If you want to sell a Zoomer magazine for older baby boomers (ie retirees) then sure market it for anyone over 45. If you are a marketer you can consider anyone over 45 or 50 to be part of a senior market. If you are the government handing out pensions I'd like mine at 65. If you want to say I'm past competing with others in a board game then don't suggest I sign up until I'm over 75.
Re: Why I Supported The Motion For Womens CFC Titles
I think you might find the information here. Page 12. I don't pay attention to the projections because the past is not a reliable predictor of the future.
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