Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

[Jordan S. Berson]

This scenario happened at the Newfoundland Chess Championships last weekend. It's the only thing that really bothered me about the tournament, as I was very much hoping to avoid an odd number of entries for this exact reason.

Player X took a bye in the first round of a tournament due to health reasons. In the final round, he had 1.5/4 and got another bye, this time by force.

Finishing with 2.5/5 would qualify Player X for two class prizes: U1800 and Top Senior. There were two other players who finished with 2.5/5: Player Y, who also had 1.5 points from two byes, and Player Z, who had no byes. Both Players Y and Z qualified for U1800, and Player Z also qualified for the Top Senior prize.

Do any of the above details weigh on whether Player X gets a full point or a half point in the last round? I have heard some people say that last-round forced byes are always 1/2 point, others (including what I could gather from the CFC handbook) say that forced byes are always 1 point.

In the end, I gave Player Y the U1800 prize, and Player Z the Senior prize (both the same $50 value). I had already announced in Round 2 that players could not qualify for two class prizes. If I was wrong to exclude Player X, then I'm not above giving him $25 for half of the Senior prize, along with a sincere apology.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks in advance, Jordan

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

This scenario happened at the Newfoundland Chess Championships last weekend. It's the only thing that really bothered me about the tournament, as I was very much hoping to avoid an odd number of entries for this exact reason.

Player X took a bye in the first round of a tournament due to health reasons. In the final round, he had 1.5/4 and got another bye, this time by force.

Finishing with 2.5/5 would qualify Player X for two class prizes: U1800 and Top Senior. There were two other players who finished with 2.5/5: Player Y, who also had 1.5 points from two byes, and Player Z, who had no byes. Both Players Y and Z qualified for U1800, and Player Z also qualified for the Top Senior prize.

Do any of the above details weigh on whether Player X gets a full point or a half point in the last round? I have heard some people say that last-round forced byes are always 1/2 point, others (including what I could gather from the CFC handbook) say that forced byes are always 1 point.

In the end, I gave Player Y the U1800 prize, and Player Z the Senior prize (both the same $50 value). I had already announced in Round 2 that players could not qualify for two class prizes. If I was wrong to exclude Player X, then I'm not above giving him $25 for half of the Senior prize, along with a sincere apology.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks in advance, Jordan

Forced byes are 1 point. Always.

Prize distribution, unless announced differently in advance, is governed by a section in the handbook. (one portion of those rules is that a player only wins one prize). In this case, $33 to each of X, Y, and Z (The two $50 prizes summed and divided by 3).

there might be some rules regarding giving TD byes to players who have had a bye(s) although, in a small tournament such as yours, it is difficult to avoid doing so.

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

Forced byes are 1 point. Always.

Prize distribution, unless announced differently in advance, is governed by a section in the handbook. (one portion of those rules is that a player only wins one prize). In this case, $33 to each of X, Y, and Z (The two $50 prizes summed and divided by 3).

there might be some rules regarding giving TD byes to players who have had a bye(s) although, in a small tournament such as yours, it is difficult to avoid doing so.

Roger is right, you cannot give a force 1/2 point. Arbiters usually do not give 1 point byes to people that already had a 1/2 point unless there's really no other choice. Was he the only one with this score after 4 rounds? If there was someone with 1.5/4 (that did not have a bye), he should have received the 1 point bye.

Roger is also right on the prize distribution ($33 each).

[Alex Ferreira]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

Hi,


Some excerpts from pairing rules FIDE Handbook:

--------------------

"A.5 Byes

Should the total number of players be (or become) odd, one player ends up unpaired. This player receives a bye: no opponent, no colour , 1 point or half point (as stated in the tournament regulations) "

I guess forced byes could be half if stated in advance. Did not know that. Thought they were always 1 point.

--------------------

"B.1


a - Two players shall not meet more than once.

b - A player who has received a point or half point without playing, either through a bye or due to an opponent not appearing in time, is a downfloater (see A.4) and shall not receive a bye."

That should be simple enough. Anyone who has received a bye (of any kind, including a forfeit win! it seems) should not get any more byes.

--------------------


Some other stuff that bothers me about byes that comes to mind:

A - In North America we give 1/2 points for no reason what-so-ever, just to keep everybody happy. A requested bye traditionally / anywhere else in the world is zero points. I had an arbiter in Europe look at me strangely when I requested a bye, that's how uncommon it was. So now we have to distinguish between different kinds of byes.
Byes by regulations, byes because we mess with the system, "I don't feel like playing / can't play / won't play" byes, vs. "you're the odd man out, the system pairs you out" byes, etc...

B - We are all very loose in letting people request 1/2 point byes during the tournament, or asking to play after having had requested the bye originally. (whaaaat!?)

C - In USA only a few years ago, there was even a case where a GM took the last two rounds half-point byes and won a prize in the process (he had requested it prior to start of the tournament since he was never going to be able to finish it due to other commitments) -- apparently this was within tournament regulations and that was something to talk about.

D - SwissSys -- I've witnessed the pairing program do something that I question and cannot explain. If someone for example requests a Round 4 bye, he/she will not be the odd person (by rating anyway, only if is the only person in lowest point group) out in Rounds 1-3 even if that should be the case. The programs 'sees ahead' -- Doesn't seem right. In other words, and this is where it's most obvious... the lowest rated player, in an odd-number-crowd, can attempt to avoid a Round 1 bye by requesting one down the line.



Alex Ferreira

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

A - In North America we give 1/2 points for no reason what-so-ever, just to keep everybody happy. A requested bye traditionally / anywhere else in the world is zero points. I had an arbiter in Europe look at me strangely when I requested a bye, that's how uncommon it was. So now we have to distinguish between different kinds of byes.
Byes by regulations, byes because we mess with the system, "I don't feel like playing / can't play / won't play" byes, vs. "you're the odd man out, the system pairs you out" byes, etc...

FIDE Rules have this:
"F.5 ... Players known in advance not to play in a particular round are nor paired in that round and score 0."

My middle stand: players with 1/2-byes (missed rounds) are not eligible for prizes, unless these byes are transformed into zeros.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

I have heard of a system where the 1/2 pt. byes are given only for pairing purposes.

At the end of the tournament, the crosstable then shows "0" for all byes (except director 1 pt. byes).

Any arbiter in Canada follow this system?

Bob A

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

Some excerpts from pairing rules FIDE Handbook:

"A.5 Byes

Should the total number of players be (or become) odd, one player ends up unpaired. This player receives a bye: no opponent, no colour , 1 point or half point (as stated in the tournament regulations) "

I guess forced byes could be half if stated in advance. Did not know that. Thought they were always 1 point.

1/2 forced bye seems unfair to me. The player could always argue that he would have won his game.

And the unpaired player is already penalized by not playing (imo) while he registered for the tournament, made arrangements etc.

The only problem I see with the 1 point forced bye is in the subsequent pairings. For example, when the lowest rated player gets 1 point in round 1 and is then paired with the leaders in round 2. This 'easy game' in round 2 can help one of the leaders down the road.

[Vlad Dobrich]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

I give 1/2 point byes in ALL cases. The person receiving the bye is usually scoring below 50% til that point so 1/2 point improves their percentage. It also makes subsequent pairings fairer.

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

Egidijus : This is only for FIDE. Major tournaments do not allow for 1/2 points bye (like the Quebec Open), but this is rare... If it is not mentionned, and someone does take a 1/2 point bye, then it should definitely count for 1/2 for prizes.

I never heard about an organizer giving 1/2 points forced byes... To be honest I consider this extremely unfair and would probably not even participate in such a tournament... Not only is it already annoying to not be able to play, but we cannot even have the same score as if we had won our game...

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

I once ran a tournament where I gave a full-point on forced byes and refunded the money equal to a percentage that round constituted to the entire event. I think it was a 5-rounder, so anyone getting a forced bye received 20% of their EF back to them since they paid, wanted, and were available, for a service they didn't receive.

I like how Aris does it in Ottawa, too. Almost no one gets a forced bye in his events due to floaters and inter-section pairings.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

My middle stand: players with 1/2-byes (missed rounds) are not eligible for prizes, unless these byes are transformed into zeros.

Is this to combat the Swiss Gambit? Pairing the next round as if the player had won the full point with white, might also help. Kind of like accelerated pairings.

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

I once ran a tournament where I gave a full-point on forced byes and refunded the money equal to a percentage that round constituted to the entire event. I think it was a 5-rounder, so anyone getting a forced bye received 20% of their EF back to them since they paid, wanted, and were available, for a service they didn't receive.

I like how Aris does it in Ottawa, too. Almost no one gets a forced bye in his events due to floaters and inter-section pairings.

Tom,

I had offered a guy free entry in case we needed a floater. He declined for reasons I'll never understand. It would have really helped to have an extra since the last three rounds all had an odd number of players to pair.

Jordan

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Re : Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

Roger and Felix:

Duly noted, and thanks for the detailed input!

Jordan

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

D - SwissSys -- I've witnessed the pairing program do something that I question and cannot explain. If someone for example requests a Round 4 bye, he/she will not be the odd person (by rating anyway, only if is the only person in lowest point group) out in Rounds 1-3 even if that should be the case. The programs 'sees ahead' -- Doesn't seem right. In other words, and this is where it's most obvious... the lowest rated player, in an odd-number-crowd, can attempt to avoid a Round 1 bye by requesting one down the line.

Alex,

SwissSys did that in our tournament as well. At first I thought it was useful, only because I was not carrying a crystal ball with me, and had no idea of the troubles it would cause down the road. In hindsight, I would have overruled SwissSys had I known better, for the same reason that you explained.

Thanks for the response!

Jordan

[Jordan S. Berson]

Re: Question About Forced Byes - TD's Please Read!

My middle stand: players with 1/2-byes (missed rounds) are not eligible for prizes, unless these byes are transformed into zeros.

E,

That's a very interesting way of dealing with elected byes... thanks for that!

Jordan