A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

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  • A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

    Welcome back to Chesstalk, everyone, here is a mind-blowing post to officially put everyone back into Chess Zombie status:

    Let's say you want to analyze every single unique and legal chess position in which both White and Black have 1 each of the 6 unique chess pieces: King, Queen, Rook, Bishop, Knight, Pawn. If you could analyze to completion (say using Houdini 3000) each and every such position in 1 second flat, how long would it take you?

    Obviously, there is no definitive answer to this. But can we approximate it?

    Yes we can. To make it clearer, let's lay it out thusly:

    Code:
    	WK	WQ	WR	WB	WN	WP
    	1	2	3	4	5	6
    	
    	
    	BK	BQ	BR	BB	BN	BP
    	7	8	9	10	11	12
    The numbers below each piece each represent a board square.

    If we leave the pieces in the exact order they are, how many ways can we arrange the 12 boardsqures?

    The answer is: 12 factorial (12!, or 12 * 11 * 10 * 9 * 8 * 7 * 6 * 5 * 4 * 3 * 2 *1). That number is 479,001,600.

    Now: How many unique ways can you pick 12 board squares out of 64 unique board squares?

    The number of ways of picking n distinct elements from a total of N:

    P(n, N) = N!/(n! * (N-n)!)

    = 64! / (12! * 52!)

    However, we don't need to divide by 12! because for each pick of 12 board squares, there are 12! unique arrangements for the 12 pieces, as shown above.

    Thus the number of unique arrangements of the 12 unique pieces on 12 unique board squares is
    64! / (64 - 12)!

    = 64! / 52!

    = 53 * 54 * 55 * 56 * 57 * 58 * 59 * 60 * 61 * 62 * 63 * 64

    = 1,573,144,097,507,348,889,600


    Many of these positions will be illegal in standard chess for the following reasons:
    (1) White and Black Kings are adjacent
    (2) White or Black Pawn (or both) is on White's or Black's first rank.
    (3) White and Black Kings are both in check (by any number of opposing pieces)
    (4) Either White or Black King is in check from 3 or more opposing pieces
    (5) Either White or Black King is in double check, and there is no possible move that could
    have been made to uncover the double check (since a discovered double check is the
    only double check possible in standard chess)

    Of these, (5) is by far the most difficult to determine. However, (3) and (4) are also extremely
    problematic because if either White's or Black's Pawn are on White's or Black's 8th rank respectively,
    they are no longer Pawns but any one of the other major pieces, and could be giving check.


    Can any of the items (1) to (5) be calculated mathematically?

    (1) and (2), probably.

    (3), (4), not without great effort possibly taking a lifetime, and

    (5) almost assuredly no.


    Ok... Let's assume that 73,144,097,507,348,889,600 of these arrangements constitute an illegal chess position. That's a reasonably generous allowance; it works out to 4.65% of the total positions.

    I chose that number because it leaves 1,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 legal and unique chess positions with just the 6 unique White and 6 unique Black pieces.

    If you could set up each legal and unique position and thoroughly analyze it in an incredible 1 second, it would take you 47,532,131,721,043 years and about 5 additional months to analyze them all.

    That's 47.5 TRILLION years.

    The universe is estimated to be about 13.75 billion years old. Let's call that a "Universenium".

    (I looked on Wikipedia under "age of the universe" and found no named term for it. Does that mean I've actually been the first to name it?)

    It would thus take you 3,457 Universeniums to analyze each and every legal and unique chess position composed of just 6 unique White and 6 unique Black pieces.

    Oh... actually, double that. Each position could be White to move or Black to move.

    But... there is one time-saver that might chop off some billions of years. For each position you set up and analyze, every move made that is not a capture creates another of the 1.5 sextillion unique positions. So if you make an average of say 9 such moves before a capture is made, you are actually analyzing 10 of the unique positions -- that's 9 of them you don't have to set up and analyze.

    Ok, so double 3,457 Universeniums = 6,914 Universeniums (I'd like to round off and say 6,900, but 14 Universeniums is... shall we say "significant"?). Divide that by 10... about 691 Universeniums to get it all done.

    But wait... some of those 9 positions we saved are bound to be duplicates so we wouldn't save quite as many positions as we thought... so let's finally do some rounding off and say a nice, round, even

    700 Universeniums to analyze all the unique positions of 6 unique White pieces and 6 unique Black pieces, analyzing one such position per second.

    "It was my understanding there would be no math." -- Chevy Chase
    Only the rushing is heard...
    Onward flies the bird.

  • #2
    Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

    Paul, if you want people to read your posts, you have to make it more concise and with less numbers. People come on here to read about the latest flame war or tournament results, not to participate in your sometimes interesting but often times tedious debates.
    Shameless self-promotion on display here
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Barkyducky?feature=mhee

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

      Originally posted by Bindi Cheng View Post
      Paul, if you want people to read your posts, you have to make it more concise and with less numbers. People come on here to read about the latest flame war or tournament results, not to participate in your sometimes interesting but often times tedious debates.
      I read it :)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

        Originally posted by Matthew Nicholson View Post
        I read it :)
        Likewise

        10char

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

          Paul, you have really got something here! Look for a place to publish this! :)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

            Originally posted by Frank Dixon View Post
            Paul, you have really got something here! Look for a place to publish this! :)
            Glad you liked it, Frank. I guess not everyone here is as dumbed down as Bindi Cheng would like to think.

            Maybe I'll get credit for "universenium" as a term for the age of the universe.

            In fact, I'm so enamoured by it that I wrote up a hypothetical Jerry Seinfeld standup routine dealing with this term:

            "I think this new term, universenium, is something we should really try and use in conversation a lot. After all, we are in an age of science. We're discovering all these Earth-like planets hundreds or thousands of light-years away. But what's that? What's a light-year? We're never gonna travel the speed of light. You have to BE LIGHT to travel the speed of light, you know that, right?

            No... the best we can hope for is a few tens of thousands of miles per hour.

            So if we ever send a colony to even the closest Earth-like planet, say 47 light years away... it's going to take SEVERAL UNIVERSENIUMS for us to get there. And that... THAT I can fathom. 'Age of the Universe'. Yeah... I got that. ... it DEFINITELY and PERMANENTLY erases all hope that I'm ever going to get to see that planet. If the captain says, 'Good morning, everyone, we just made our final course correction, and we got the solar wind at our tail, our cruising speed has increased 500 miles per hour for the next month or so'... I won't get any false hope. I KNOW I'm still not gonna make it.

            And, see, that's the whole thing. You start talking universeniums instead of light years, and people realize, 'I'm just not gonna be there.'

            You can bring this term up in romantic conversation too. [romantic male voice]: 'How long will I love thee? Let me count the universeniums.' [romantic female voice]: 'Oh, Roger, really? Even just one universenium is so long, it just seems endless... our endless love!'

            You see? MUCH better than light years."

            ... pause...

            "And you know... a light universenium is so much bigger than a light year too. What's with these quasars that are a billion light years away? Can I picture that?

            Tell us the quasar is 1/14th of a light universenium away. How big is a light universenium? Well guess what? It's ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE WHOLE UNIVERSE! Right from one edge to the other. That's as big as it gets, folks.

            So 1/14th of the whole universe away... ok, got it. I see a big black circle and I see the diameter going across the middle and I divide that up into 14, and that's how far that quasar is from us.

            A billion light years... SHEESH!
            "
            Only the rushing is heard...
            Onward flies the bird.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

              Given computers can analyze 1 million positions per second, I think we only need one thousandth of a universium. Quite doable :-)

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

                Originally posted by Paul Bonham View Post
                Maybe I'll get credit for "universenium" as a term for the age of the universe.
                Which one? A respectable theory is that of the "multi-verse" in which there are multiple universes, coming into being and passing away like soap bubbles. They would all have different "ages" one supposes.
                Dogs will bark, but the caravan of chess moves on.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

                  Originally posted by Nigel Hanrahan View Post
                  Which one? A respectable theory is that of the "multi-verse" in which there are multiple universes, coming into being and passing away like soap bubbles. They would all have different "ages" one supposes.
                  Hey, don't give Paul some more ideas, he'll start posting stories about chess variants in other universes!

                  I'm fine with the universe and chess in their current forms.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

                    Originally posted by Alan Baljeu View Post
                    Given computers can analyze 1 million positions per second, I think we only need one thousandth of a universium. Quite doable :-)
                    Good point, Alan, and we all know computers can do this. That's why I wrote:

                    "If you could analyze to completion (say using Houdini 3000) each and every such position in 1 second flat"

                    So what I mean by "to completion" is not just give each position an evaluation, which is what a computer engine does (an eval() function that does things like count material, count how many squares each side has control of, etc.). No, what I meant was to actually figure out if the position is a win for White, win for Black, or drawn with best play for both sides.

                    To do that in 1 second, even with just 12 pieces on the board, is something no computer engine on any available hardware is even close to being able to do. Maybe when they get a working quantum computer... ?

                    And that's why I wrote "Houdini 3000". Right now Houdini is at version 3. It's gonna take a "few" more versions before it will be able to do what I'm referring to.

                    But again, you make a good point, because it is possible to at least evaluate each position in a matter of milliseconds or even microseconds. So then, all one would have to do is write a program loop that generates and evaluates each position in sequence. At the end, it could even tell you how many of the 1,573,144,097,507,348,889,600 positions are illegal in standard chess. That would be interesting to know.

                    But 1/1000th of a universenium... 13.75 million years... will there be any humans to even find out the answer?
                    Only the rushing is heard...
                    Onward flies the bird.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

                      Originally posted by Paul Bonham View Post
                      But 1/1000th of a universenium... 13.75 million years... will there be any humans to even find out the answer?
                      Paul, remember the answer to the ultimate question took a mere 7.5 million years,.......but then the ultimate question did take another 10 million years, but by then the earth had been destroyed. :D

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aboZctrHfK8

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

                        Operationally the answer is simple.

                        If you could complete and record the results of the analysis, your environs would immediately collapse into a black hole. This is a consequence of the Bekenstein Bound, a theorem in physics which you can look up if curious.

                        This may, alas, be the only watertight defense against players cheating with "Houdini 3000" or whatnot.

                        I am glad for ChessTalk's return, anyway! :)
                        Last edited by Kenneth Regan; Friday, 31st May, 2013, 12:47 AM. Reason: added last sentence

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

                          Originally posted by Bob Gillanders View Post
                          Paul, remember the answer to the ultimate question took a mere 7.5 million years,.......but then the ultimate question did take another 10 million years, but by then the earth had been destroyed. :D

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aboZctrHfK8
                          Bob, of course you must know this whole thread was inspired by your INSANE PROJECT. :)

                          I think a movie should be done on this project. Perhaps Michael Moore as director? Somehow you can tie it all in to Global Warming, the excesses of Wall Street, and the ramblings of Zeljko Kitich.

                          And last but not least, the Voyage To the Planet of Prehistoric Women...

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seY9kF4xNRA
                          Only the rushing is heard...
                          Onward flies the bird.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

                            Originally posted by Nigel Hanrahan View Post
                            Which one? A respectable theory is that of the "multi-verse" in which there are multiple universes, coming into being and passing away like soap bubbles. They would all have different "ages" one supposes.
                            Hard evidence for the existence of multiple universes:

                            http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog...-evidence.html
                            Only the rushing is heard...
                            Onward flies the bird.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: A mind-blowing way to celebrate Chesstalk's return

                              Originally posted by Paul Bonham View Post
                              Hard evidence for the existence of multiple universes:

                              http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog...-evidence.html
                              And the math suggest that in one of these, you enjoy regular chess! We live in a crazy multiverse! :p

                              Comment

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