Ethical Question about posting games during events

[John Upper]

Is it unfair to a player to post their games during an event, when (some of) the games of future opponents will not be posted?


some thoughts:
- it gives an informational advantage to the players whose games are not posted:

• they can prepare more easily against that published player's openings (what is she prepared to play in this tournament?),
• they can discover that what used to be a weakness is no longer one (e.g. a very well played R ending might show that a player had fixed that weakness)

- this is not a problem in events where all the games are posted simultaneously (the Olympiad, with 100s of DGT boards), but that's not the question here.

- is it better or worse if the player has no choice about how to keep score?
e.g. if a player can choose to use either a regular scoresheet (no publication) or a Monroi device (which transmits games live to the internet), then the player who chooses the Monroi might be thought of as having given consent for the game to be published immediately, while the player who chooses the regular scoresheet has not consented to publication.

But, if all the players are compelled to use and submit carbon scoresheets, then we might think of them as having consented to have their games published eventually but without consenting to have their games published significantly before those of their opponents.

[Bob Armstrong]

Scarborough CC: Ethical Question about posting games during weekly events

Hi John:

At one time, in the regular weekly swisses at Scarborough CC, our newsletter was publishing some games of tournaments during tournaments and collecting games of tournaments voluntarily - some gave in their games; others did not.

Then came a club championship round robin! One player made exactly the argument you have - not all games were being published, and so some players were getting an advantage - some could prepare against their opponents, who were handing in games and getting them published during the tournament. Those who didn't hand in their games had the advantage that their opponents had no games to use to prepare.

The counter-argument was that there were so many games of all our players already in our extensive SCC Games Database (no longer kept now), and in public databases, that a few games one way or the other mattered little.

The executive decided to continue collecting the games, but that the newsletter could not publish them 'til after the conclusion of the championship. They further decided that this rule would apply for all SCC regular weekly tournaments. So from then on, all tournament games came out months after being played, once that particular tournament had ended.

Bob A

[Ken Craft]

Re: Scarborough CC: Ethical Question about posting games during weekly events

Games played in public view are already in the public domain. I do not see any ethical conundrum in posting them.

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Ethical Question about posting games during events

Games from the Quebec Open have always been posted as soon after the rounds as possible - I have never heard a complaint from anyone.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Ethical Question about posting games during events

Games from the Quebec Open have always been posted as soon after the rounds as possible - I have never heard a complaint from anyone.

Hi Hugh:

Is this played in sections or as one big swiss (I thought there was an invitational section, at least)?

And if in sections, in the top one, are ALL games published at the same time?

Bob

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Ethical Question about posting games during events

Last year, all games in the top two sections (FIDE/CFC/FQE) were published ASAP - some with the help of Monroi. That involved about 16 games (each round) from the Invitational, and 25-30 games (each round) from the Open. Most games from the U2000 were also done (maybe a couple of days later), as well as the top few boards from the U1700 and U1300 sections.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Ethical Question about posting games during events

The argument at Scarborough CC had been that if ALL games from the championship section were being published before the next round, then there would be no objection - all players would have equal chance to prepare for their opponents.

The sticker was that at SCC, we couldn't publish all games before the next round - some we didn't get (handing in was voluntary); some we had but couldn't get entered and published on time (not enough volunteer hours). This is where the unfairness argument comes in.

So if in your top sections, all games were being published before the subsequent round, then there would be no issue to complain about!

Bob A

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Ethical Question about posting games during events

At the SCC, were pairings posted in advance? If so - that could be your problem. Post them the day/time of the round, and players won't have time to prepare for their (known) opponent. In any case - a player (in a Swiss event) can usually figure out who he will play (maybe out of 3 or 4 possibilities) - so he can still prepare in advance (using games from previous events).

The alternative would be to require that all players hand in copies of their scoresheets - with appropriate penalties if not done. (another requirement from the 2009 Canadian Open in Edmonton. Unfortunately - the games were never all entered - and/or the scoresheets/games went missing, so the only complete round was round 8 - for which I had the scoresheets and was able to enter them. Tony F - any news on this subject?)

[Bob Armstrong]

SCC: Ethical Question about posting games during the club championship

Hi Hugh:

Yes, the problem at SCC was that the championship section was a 9-round 10 player round robin. So each player knew whom he was playing in advance re each round, and thus could prepare for his opponent, if his opponent's current games were being published during the tournament.

The problem for SCC was that it wanted to emphasize the "friendly" nature of SCC club participation, and thus didn't like "forcing" members to do things, if possible. The other problem, was that of enforcement - would a player who refused to hand in his scoresheet receive a forfeit loss for that game as a penalty, even if he'd won?? Not a happy scenario.

Bob A

[Kerry Liles]

Re: SCC: Ethical Question about posting games during the club championship

Hi Hugh:

Yes, the problem at SCC was that the championship section was a 9-round 10 player round robin. So each player knew whom he was playing in advance re each round, and thus could prepare for his opponent, if his opponent's current games were being published during the tournament.

The problem for SCC was that it wanted to emphasize the "friendly" nature of SCC club participation, and thus didn't like "forcing" members to do things, if possible. The other problem, was that of enforcement - would a player who refused to hand in his scoresheet receive a forfeit loss for that game as a penalty, even if he'd won?? Not a happy scenario.

Bob A

I've noticed in a LOT of cases that chess players really like rules when they are in their favour - not so much when they are on the short end of the stick.
Perhaps that is just human nature.

In this particular discussion, I fail to see the urgency to publish anyone's games [except top GMs (such games are usually available in almost real time, so are already out there anyway.]

In the case of the CYCC, even if games are delayed being published, what about knowledge that is gained by walking around observing what opening(s) your main rivals tend to play?

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: Ethical Question about posting games during events

Is it unfair to a player to post their games during an event, when (some of) the games of future opponents will not be posted?


some thoughts:
- it gives an informational advantage to the players whose games are not posted:

• they can prepare more easily against that published player's openings (what is she prepared to play in this tournament?),
• they can discover that what used to be a weakness is no longer one (e.g. a very well played R ending might show that a player had fixed that weakness)

- this is not a problem in events where all the games are posted simultaneously (the Olympiad, with 100s of DGT boards), but that's not the question here.

- is it better or worse if the player has no choice about how to keep score?
e.g. if a player can choose to use either a regular scoresheet (no publication) or a Monroi device (which transmits games live to the internet), then the player who chooses the Monroi might be thought of as having given consent for the game to be published immediately, while the player who chooses the regular scoresheet has not consented to publication.

But, if all the players are compelled to use and submit carbon scoresheets, then we might think of them as having consented to have their games published eventually but without consenting to have their games published significantly before those of their opponents.

I guess that depends on who owns the game under copyright laws if they apply. My thinking is that both players and possibly the TD has rights as well. So that either player or the organizer can publish them. I have had a few of my games end up somehow in databases and sites. Not sure why anyone would be particularly interested in my games but there you go. I have no objections.

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Ethical Question about posting games during events

There's absolutely no copyrights on games.

Imho, you should post as many games as you can during the tournament. Some players might not like that, but 10 times more (including parents) will really appreciate it.