Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

1) The exact way is still not determine (as it will depend on how much profit we get). We already decided to offer bursaries to CYCC participants who wish to participate in the CO (as it is quite expensive for parents to pay for both tournaments). Probably that we would offer additional prizes for 2nd and 3rd place, but this is far from being certain (there are so many possibilities).

2) Most people will be volunteers (they might have free pizza on the last day though :) ). The FQE employees will work lots of hours on this project this year, but the FQE will obviously not pay itself back from the profit (I guess it could be considered as a form of sponsorship from the FQE). The TD might not be a volunteer (they usually are, but for a tournament like the CO or the CYCC, it might be good to offer something).

Thank you Felix for those detailed answers.

Since the exact method of paying back to the kids is still open, I've long been in favor of rewarding not just the winners of sections. So something like prizes for Best Fighting Chess and Best Tactical Brilliancy and Best Strategic Brilliancy. I realize those kinds of prizes take time and effort (going through games), but it gives the sectional non-winners something to shoot for even on the last day when they may be out of the sectional winners circle. And if some players who finished otherwise out of the money wins some of those prizes, it gives them something to be proud of and keep them in the game with a positive attitude, which is good and proper because they exhibit something that we look for in chess even if it didn't turn into wins. Of course, section winners would be eligible for those prizes, and parents would have no say in who wins them.

What you mention about a form of FQE sponsorship may be part of the explanation as to why outside of Quebec there is this apparent need for a "rake" of the entry fee to go to organizers and other workers. I'm writing that without knowing the details of how many FQE employees are involved nor how many hours they put in nor what they are paid. It's just a different way of doing the same thing. In the case of Quebec, at least part of it comes from the taxpayer base, but maybe it's a very small part. At any rate, good luck with the organizational effort.

[Frank Dixon]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

On the CYCC clocks issue, thanks to Mr. Huang for his interest, and for supporting the event. Let us not forget that the player who bought a clock at the CYCC will have the use of it from now on for many events into the future!

I can personally attest to this: in my 45 years of competitive chess activity in Canada, the Ottawa organizers who put on the 2013 CYCC and Canadian Open equaled or surpassed every large-field, high-quality event I have been around, as a player, arbiter, organizer, coach, and fan. I received several dozen compliments from players, parents, and coaches who were impressed with the results.

It is true that we fell a bit short in a couple of areas. We did not learn until right before the event that one of the major rooms, where we had to put 40 boards, was not air-conditioned, and it was very hot in Ottawa that week. Players who were scheduled there had worse conditions than elsewhere. We were able to reprogram and avoid that room for tournament play in the Open, saving it for skittles, analysis, simuls, lectures, and the blitz tournament. And we were a bit short-staffed on qualified arbiters for the CYCC. We had talent and experience across all aspects of chess organization. Everyone involved put forth their best effort, and we had great team camaraderie and cooperation.

Personally, I was enormously impressed with Danny Goldenberg, who served as Chief Arbiter for the Canadian Open. It was my first time working with Danny. In my opinion, if he were to set a course towards becoming a world-class arbiter, he could achieve this within only a few more years.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Re : Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

By the way, for many CO and CYCC the venue is free or not expensive at all (especially if the turnout is great), even for great venues. Hotels love to be able to book hundreds of nights in advance.

Wow, if only that were true!
To test the veracity of your claim, I visited a major hotel in Burlington this afternoon to inquire about site rental for July 2015. If I am able to negotiate a free (or inexpensive) site, I consider a bid myself for 2015. :)

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

I don't see this as a question of fairness or a question of ethics, Peter. The fee for the tournament is $225. Out of that fee $150 of it goes to the CFC to pay for expenses related to the WYCC. The other $75 is to be used by the organizers at their discretion. ...

Setting aside this discussion about cross-funding for the moment, maybe the CFC should be awarding the CYCC on a cost-plus basis subject to some maximum (say, the existing flat rate of $75 per child). This would at least put a bit of pressure on organizers not to 'cheap out' on the CYCC arrangements in the hope of a larger windfall for their CO.

... If the organizers turn a profit that is fine. I think it is legitimate that organizers, tournament directors etc get paid for their time and effort. If they choose to forgo that pay and donate that money to another tournament which they are organizing I see that as legitimate. The only accounting necessary is that $150 goes to the CFC and $75 goes to the organizer.

Of course organizers, TDs, etc., should be fairly compensated for their time. I haven't said otherwise. If CYCC orgs/TDs don't want their pay, then why not funnel that money back into something worthwhile for junior chess? Why just use that money to boost the prize fund, or pay GM expenses, in the CO? Why? (if I may answer my own question) Because the CFC and a number of big-name organizers across the country value a big, flashy CO more highly than they do youth chess. And if that is the case, then why doesn't the CFC be consistent and take, say, 10% off the top of their share of the CYCC pool and 'donate' it to the CO? After all, if it's good for $x of CYCC parents' money to be used for CO funding, then why isn't it even better for $x + $y to be used? Bring in another 4 or 5 GMs! For the time and energy that the CFC puts into assessing bid(s), monitoring outcomes, initiating funds flows between the CFC and FIDE, etc., don't they deserve a cut of the action? And if they choose to donate their cut of the action to the CO wouldn't that be a perfectly legit thing to do? In fact, who says that 10% is the right number? Maybe it should be 15%. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Perhaps the CYCC has become a means to an end for CO organizers; i.e. you have to go through the aggravation of putting on the CYCC in order to raise critical funds for your CO. And that's pretty damned sad.

[Gary Hua]

Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

I feel that this discussion boils down to what is the overall objectives of CFC. Which one is the priority ? CYCC or CO or for that matter any other tournaments ? What is CFC's vision as the official body in Canada ? As a non profit organization, what key performance indicators which indicates that CFC has achieve it's objective and so for ? How are they going to be well funded and able to promote chess in Canada at the same time ? CFC has existed since 1872 and that's more than 140 years. How many members do CFC have and how many are actively playing ? Is chess getting more popular now than before and what are the indicators ?

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Re : Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

Wow, if only that were true!
To test the veracity of your claim, I visited a major hotel in Burlington this afternoon to inquire about site rental for July 2015. If I am able to negotiate a free (or inexpensive) site, I consider a bid myself for 2015. :)

It's always great to get more bids (although there would be strong competition for 2015!). I can't tell you what to expect in Burlington though. If we look at the financial report from the 2011 CYCC/CO in Toronto, we see that the hotel was free, since they got over 300 nights (which isn't that much). It's usually much harder to get good prices in big cities like Montreal or Toronto. I know that many hotels would be ready to host the Quebec Open or the Canadian Open for free, but they would be outside of Montreal. In our case we planned to pay a large amount on the hotel (it's better to be ready for the worse case scenario), but we hope to have a nice deal (even though it's one of the busiest weeks of the year).
Trois-Rivieres (QC) seems pretty similar to Burlington (in terms of size) and might be a good example for you. This is where the Mauricie Open is being held every year. The hotel provides free rooms for the tournament (and there's over 250 players) and they seem quite happy of their deal.

In any case, don't expect them to offer you a free venue at first. You'll have to negociate, promise them lots of nights and convince them that it will be worthwhile.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

If we look at the financial report from the 2011 CYCC/CO in Toronto, we see that the hotel was free, since they got over 300 nights (which isn't that much).

Really? Where is this financial report you speak of? I haven't seen it, have I?

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

As a non profit organization, what key performance indicators which indicates that CFC has achieve it's objective and so for ?

Gary, one key measurable is the CFC membership numbers. We take a snapshot every May 1st. Stats can be found on the CFC website going back to 1993.
http://chess.ca/membership-stats

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

Really? Where is this financial report you speak of? I haven't seen it, have I?

It's on Chesstalk : http://www.chesstalk.info/forum/show...ight=cycc+2011
It was for the Toronto Sheraton hotel.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

It's on Chesstalk : http://www.chesstalk.info/forum/show...ight=cycc+2011
It was for the Toronto Sheraton hotel.

Wow, thanks Felix. So once the event reached 300 sold rooms, the tournament playing hall etc was free. That's a good deal!
I wonder if there was a sliding scale, say a discount at 250 rooms, or 200 rooms,....

I will certainly use this information in my negotiations!

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

I feel that this discussion boils down to what is the overall objectives of CFC. Which one is the priority ? CYCC or CO or for that matter any other tournaments ? What is CFC's vision as the official body in Canada ? As a non profit organization, what key performance indicators which indicates that CFC has achieve it's objective and so for ? How are they going to be well funded and able to promote chess in Canada at the same time ? CFC has existed since 1872 and that's more than 140 years. How many members do CFC have and how many are actively playing ? Is chess getting more popular now than before and what are the indicators ?

Words of wisdom! Thanks, Gary

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

Sorry, Bob, for being too aggressive. When I get wrapped up in an issue, as you no doubt know, I have the bad habit of flying off the handle. Not your fault. Peace! :)

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

You can find the financial report for the 2011 Canadian Open (not the CYCC) at http://www.chess.ca/sites/default/fi...012_GL%232.pdf - page 27. There is a $12,000.60 item for "site rental".

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

Thanks Hugh! I was looking for something similar but couldn't find it. It wasn't free, but $12 000 for 12 days in an expensive city like Toronto (and a Sheraton) is quite cheap!

Also, they had other activities like a camp and a closing dinner. Perhaps they raised the cost of the venue?

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Question for CFC and Organizers of 2013 CYCC & CO

The 2011 Open was held at the Westin Harbour Castle (not the Sheraton) in Toronto.

(well...Starwood Hotels owns both the Westin and Sheraton hotel chains)