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23/10/29, 05:34 PM (Post from the Negative Climate Change Thread)
Hey Bob A,
- my youtube viewing strayed into the topic of collapse of civilization. This is an even wider canvas where climate change is one of several crisis that could bring down our civilization.
In fact, climate change can really be considered a symptom of a greater cause, that of ecological overshoot. By that, we mean there are too many people consuming the planetary resources faster than the planet can regenerate. We currently have 8 billion people and climbing, but the planet can only support 3 billion (estimates vary) based on current capacity.
I was wondering what you thought. I found a great channel on the topic, here is a sample.
But I know for years, vegetarians have answered the issue of overpopulation/food security, with the simple solution of: eliminate carnivore-oriented farming; morph into grain/rice/lentil/etc. oriented farming. All modelling shows that the amount of food produced on current farmland will easily feed the growing Earth population (Both Human & Extra-terrestrial ) for some time.
Since you raised the concept of "Collapse of Civilization" (Much broader than this narrow "Negative Climate Change" thread), and in CT we hate people "hi-jacking" threads (!), I have started a new thread with your topic, and re-posted our two posts there, to start the ball rolling.
As you well know, I've been harping on the theme of Earth Sustainability for some time........it is an issue that cuts across all human activity on the planet. The planet must come first.
I've been particularly applying it to political power amassed by our largest nations on the planet, and particularly military might. Our large Nation States (vs Earth as a Collection of Villages/Small City-States) put the sustainability of the human race at risk.
Might it be possible to have a civil, and informative, "discussion" on CT (As opposed to the same old, same old flame wars)?
I've been saying for years that GDP is flawed as a measure of growth. Hurricane Katrina contributed millions of $ to US GDP .... to rebuild what was already there.
Keep your eyes on the effects of global warming on the critical insurance industry....
Distorting the meaning of GDP in order to criticize it is a waste of everyone's time.
GDP is simply a measure of the fiscal productiveness demonstrated. What that production was used for is not what it measures, nor does any economist claim that it is a measure of betterment of society.
Distorting the meaning of GDP in order to criticize it is a waste of everyone's time.
GDP is simply a measure of the fiscal productiveness demonstrated. What that production was used for is not what it measures, nor does any economist claim that it is a measure of betterment of society.
I am glad we all agree that GDP (as currently calculated) is a very flawed measurement of economic growth. The problem is that it is the most widely used statistic quoted by politicians and media types. Not only flawed, but measuring the wrong metric. We need to develop a new metric for a sustainable economy and convince the politicians and media to give it priority over GDP.
I am glad we all agree that GDP (as currently calculated) is a very flawed measurement of economic growth. The problem is that it is the most widely used statistic quoted by politicians and media types. Not only flawed, but measuring the wrong metric. We need to develop a new metric for a sustainable economy and convince the politicians and media to give it priority over GDP.
Hi Bob G.,
GDP simply measures what we all produce. And what we produce is what we can consume. It is everyone's personal choice regarding what he/she wishes to consume, and obviously businesses will produce only what they can sell to the consumers. So the problem does not lie with the measurement of GDP, which reflects our capacity to produce, and is in that sense a good thing, but it lies with how we decide to consume... do not criticize the producers... criticize the consumers if you want to blame someone. And this guy in the video you just posted foolishly believes that everyone will be happier if production falls while we continue to consume... instead of understanding that it would just lead us down the miserable path taken by Allende's Chile or by Chavez & Maduro's Venezuela...
Hi Bob G.,
GDP simply measures what we all produce. And what we produce is what we can consume. It is everyone's personal choice regarding what he/she wishes to consume, and obviously businesses will produce only what they can sell to the consumers. So the problem does not lie with the measurement of GDP, which reflects our capacity to produce, and is in that sense a good thing, but it lies with how we decide to consume... do not criticize the producers... criticize the consumers if you want to blame someone. And this guy in the video you just posted foolishly believes that everyone will be happier if production falls while we continue to consume... instead of understanding that it would just lead us down the miserable path taken by Allende's Chile or by Chavez & Maduro's Venezuela...
Bob G., you will never get Dilip to end his campaign on behalf of the world's most wealthy (and wealthy wannabes like Dilip himself). Dilip WANTS huge income disparity -- the bigger the better in his view. I watched the video you provided the link to, and it's all common sense about doing what's right for the planet and the people -- ALL the people -- on the planet. I think you know, Bob, that Dilip will never waver, but I hope you will continue to provide these kind of links to the message of a more responsible economy.
And if anyone wonders what exactly do the ultra-wealthy want to do with their vast wealth? Yes, they want yachts and Lear jets and mansions.... but there are in various locations around the planet something that has become even more important than those things. I'm talking about survival bunkers. Facilities, many buried underground, filled with enough food and clean water to survive something like 2 or 3 years of living without having to go outside. The ultra-wealthy KNOW that we are headed for a population apocalypse, and they are extremely anxious to survive it and make sure they and their seed are the ones to survive. A reserved spot in these bunkers, together with arrangements for emergency transport to them from anywhere in the world, costs huge sums of money. This is why the ultra-wealthy want to keep building their wealth, they have to keep paying for these bunkers.
This is why Dilip harps on about the "hard-working" nature of these super-rich. His message is that they are the only ones worthy to survive the coming disasters. It's a subtle nudge to us to view ourselves (as not part of the ultra-wealthy) as inferior and not deserving of survival.
Dilip is an elitist, pure and unadulterated. He just said basically we need to keep producing more and more, and we should not criticize the producers for doing this. So if there is a major hurricane every year in New Orleans, and all the homes get flooded, we should keep adding to the GDP of that region by rebuilding homes destroyed by flooding, and even build more ones to draw more and more people into a city that lies BELOW SEA LEVEL. This is a testament to the stupidity of humanity? Maybe, but it is also a testament to the power of the elites. It is they who are behind the continued push to produce more and more and more. And they are winning and the disaster they hope for is coming for sure.
Dilip, would you care to tell us, do you have any ownership of a survival bunker anywhere in the world? And if not, are you striving to get enough money to get such a bunker? I know, I know, you don't have to answer to a "nasty troll". It's enough that I tell everyone here what it is you and your elitist compatriots are all about.
PP, you have proven by your post above that not only are you a nasty troll, but a messed up nasty troll, trying to put words in my mouth about supporting inequality. Did I not tell you that Libertarianism is the surest way to reduce inequality (of course I did, but you just could not understand, because you are all messed up in trying only to attack me, instead of focusing on the topic being discussed)?
Last edited by Dilip Panjwani; Sunday, 5th November, 2023, 08:34 AM.
Last week's Stats indicate a modest interest in this new Non-chess topic: The collapse of civilization.
Do we care what our world is going to be, as humans lose their battle to survive in an environment more and more hostile to their continued existence (Negative Climate Change; Possible Nuclear War; Pandemics; etc.)?
B. Indicia of Collapse of a Civilization
It does not happen overnight.......there is a long, continuous, slow deterioration, as values decline generally on all fronts.
Then the metamorphosis.......like the caterpillar to the butterfly.....not (In reverse!). We get either Dystopia, or, like the Phoenix from the ashes, a new Ruler/Empire appears (Often worse than the prior one)!
Post your view of the current indicia of the decline of our world civilization; we will add them here!
The most extreme wild west form of "Laissez Faire Capitalism".
The attempted application of the Natural Law as the regulator will be a total and unmitigated disaster.
As a form of Capitalism, it must of necessity, by its own infrastructure, generate an ever-widening wealth/income gap within its society.
Some might consider that we had eventually generated a Dystopia.
One answer is some type of Socialism, which will mitigate (Not eliminate) the "gap".
The best, and not often tried, form of Socialism, which will achieve this best, is "Democratic Marxism".
Bob A (DM)
Bob A,
There is obscene inequality not because some human beings are multiple times more capable than others, but because some are able to use the corrupt politicians to make laws which enable only a few to accumulate undeserved wealth, as opposed to everyone having the opportunity to earn a decent living. The more the unnecessary laws, besides the only essential Natural Law, the more the confusion and opportunity for corrupt miscarriage of justice. And your DM is the most unnatural system which can only make everyone miserable, as history has shown, and as common sense tells us that when human freedom is restricted, humans rebel, and when some are allowed to legally steal from others, everyone, the thieves and the victims, suffers. The darkness of stupid DM should never be allowed to block the light of Libertarianism. Get it?
Bob A,
There is obscene inequality not because some human beings are multiple times more capable than others, but because some are able to use the corrupt politicians to make laws which enable only a few to accumulate undeserved wealth, as opposed to everyone having the opportunity to earn a decent living. The more the unnecessary laws, besides the only essential Natural Law, the more the confusion and opportunity for corrupt miscarriage of justice. And your DM is the most unnatural system which can only make everyone miserable, as history has shown, and as common sense tells us that when human freedom is restricted, humans rebel, and when some are allowed to legally steal from others, everyone, the thieves and the victims, suffers. The darkness of stupid DM should never be allowed to block the light of Libertarianism. Get it?
You say "some are able to use the corrupt politicians....."
Did it occur to you that these "some" are the very people who should be pushing for Libertarianism? i.e. the ultra-wealthy?
Who influences politicians most? The ultra-wealthy! And their corporations! Their lobbyists!
Do they really want Libertarianism? mostly NO!
I mentioned already about the survival bunkers they are purchasing in droves, you yourself either have one or want one.
So if they buy these bunkers and are preparing for the day of moving into them, do you not think they WANT our economy to collapse, they WANT society to collapse? YOU BET THEY DO. Then they and their seed spent 2 years in hibernation, and come out to take over what's left of the world, and everything is theirs for the taking. They have to wait the 2 years for the survivors who don't have bunkers to kill each other off in pursuit of food and water, like The Walking Dead except it's not zombies getting killed, it's other surviving people.
So guess what, they are LOBBYING for more government restrictions, more laws, more lawyers! Even the USA, with their love of freedom individual liberty, cannot come close to overcoming the lobbyists for the ultra-wealthy.... the ones who SHOULD BE in support of Libertarianism, from the idealistic viewpoint at least.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
And you STILL haven't explained how the Natural Law gets interpreted .... not by lawyers or judges, you insist.
Which can only mean .... A DICTATOR.
Last edited by Pargat Perrer; Monday, 6th November, 2023, 07:06 PM.
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