Life - How Should It Be Viewed?

[Sid Belzberg]

Hi Bob,
The human brain's capacity to 'imagine', 'reflect' and 'humour' arise because of its ability to make novel connections (apparently random, which means its pre-determinism has not been explained well so far) within its constituent circuits, which computers with artificial intelligence may also have (I am not a computer expert to know for sure... maybe Sid or some computer expert can help us here), but it is an ability which quantum computers are more likely to have, given their properties of superposition and entanglement...
Thus, except for consciousness, everything else, including imagination, reflection and humor, is only complex machinery; consciousness itself also is linked to that machinery, but has additional properties of self-awareness and non-interference with the rest of the complex machinery!!

The human brain's capacity to 'imagine', 'reflect' and 'humour' arise because of its ability to make novel connections (apparently random, which means its pre-determinism has not been explained well so far) within its constituent circuits, which computers with artificial intelligence may also have (I am not a computer expert to know for sure... maybe Sid or some computer expert can help us here), but it is an ability which quantum computers are more likely to have, given their properties of superposition and entanglement...

Hi Dilip
Recent breakthroughs like AlphaZero and BERT showcase the power of learning from random patterns and trial-and-error, similar to how our brains work. AlphaZero does this by analyzing random chess positions and forming a list of the most likely winning patterns. BERT, on the other hand, guesses which words are correct in the middle of a sentence and compares its guesses to the actual words, forming a list of the most probable answers. ChatGPT is similar, except it randomly guesses at the most probable words at the end of a sentence, based on the context of the conversation.

As for quantum computers, unlike classical computers that store data as zeros or ones (bits), quantum computing involves qubits. This means that during a period when it's unknown if something resolves into a wave or particle (superposition), where wave or particle are equated with 0 or 1, quantum computers guess at the probability of which way it resolves. During the period where it makes an assumption, it can process a lot more data in this unknown state by assigning a probabilistic value to it. Of course, these algorithms, being based on probability, involve a lot of error correction when they guess wrong, but even with that, for some problems, it is a faster way to process information.

One could view these unknown states as the universe's way of storing data, where during an unknown state (superposition), the outcome is binary: wave or particle. Hence, quantum consciousness might not be as far-fetched as it appears superficially. If we consider the unknown state as a fundamental way in which the universe processes and stores information, it suggests that the fabric of reality itself might be built upon quantum principles. Extending this concept to the realm of consciousness, it becomes more plausible to consider that the brain might harness these quantum processes to generate thoughts, feelings, and subjective experiences. This perspective also ties in with the idea of the brain making probabilistic guesses and learning from trial-and-error, similar to how quantum computers operate

[Pargat Perrer]

Consciousness generates no activity. It is only a 'passive rider' on what is happening in the brain. Consciousness is not taking decisions for you, it is just aware of some of the decisions your brain is taking, not being aware of what is happening in the subconscious brain activity...
The above is the only scientific conclusion we can draw from the study of neuroscience...

Totally unproven conjecture. There should be a laugh track accompanying every one of Dilip's posts.

Strange how when a person "loses consciousness" brain activity doesn't just continue as normal.

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Dilip:

If I understand you:

When the brain generates Consciousness, the Consciousness is always only "passive", a database of all that is experienced; it is just a storage spot.

It has no influence on subsequent brain activity. It generates no concepts for the logical brain to consider, based on it seeing patterns in the data, which I assume it DOES do?

Consciousness is of no help to "guiding" the brain activity. All that Consciousness is, is a "result" of brain activity, nothing else.

I find this very hard to accept.

Bob A

It used to be very hard to accept that the earth rotates around the sun, not the other way around; Galileo was thrown into prison for explaining that...

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Dilip:

Dilip: "'Democratic' Marxism would impose Marxism upon the 49% who may vote against it, by the 51% who vote in its favor."

DM: It is not "DM" that imposes DM as a government. It is "Democracy"!! The majority rules, right or wrong - and I agree - muchly wrong......

Is Libertarianism against "Democracy/Rule by Majority Vote"? It IS the system adopted by the majority!

Bob A (Dem. Marxist)

You missed the whole point in the post. It would be nice if you read carefully before responding irrelevantly...

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Dilip:

Dilip: "'Democratic' Marxism would impose Marxism upon the 49% who may vote against it, by the 51% who vote in its favor."

DM: It is not "DM" that imposes DM as a government. It is "Democracy"!! The majority rules, right or wrong - and I agree - muchly wrong......

Is Libertarianism against "Democracy/Rule by Majority Vote"? It IS the system adopted by the majority!

Bob A (Dem. Marxist)

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Dilip:

If I understand you:

When the brain generates Consciousness, the Consciousness is always only "passive", a database of all that is experienced; it is just a storage spot.

It has no influence on subsequent brain activity. It generates no concepts for the logical brain to consider, based on it seeing patterns in the data, which I assume it DOES do?

Consciousness is of no help to "guiding" the brain activity. All that Consciousness is, is a "result" of brain activity, nothing else.

I find this very hard to accept.

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Dilip:

a person with an anti-society profile, can, very unexpectedly, out of nowhere, do an altruistic, self-sacrificing act when such could never have been predicted.

What you are implying is that certain ideas/actions are good and others bad; e.g. according the DM party of Ontario, Marxism is good, but according to others it could be evil, leading to misery for everyone in the society. And 'democratic' Marxism would impose Marxism upon the 49% who may vote against it, by the 51% who vote in its favor. The only idea that each and every human being agrees to is that 'so long as you do not impose your ideas on me, you can continue to have them'... and that is why no human being can really be opposed to be the Natural Law (however much one may try to troll it)!

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Dilip:

Consciousness is a result of brain activity, and has the capacity to generate imagination, reflection, self-awareness, humour and ethics (Non-interference in anti-social ways).

Consciousness generates no activity. It is only a 'passive rider' on what is happening in the brain. Consciousness is not taking decisions for you, it is just aware of some of the decisions your brain is taking, not being aware of what is happening in the subconscious brain activity...
The above is the only scientific conclusion we can draw from the study of neuroscience...

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Dilip:

Agreed: Consciousness is a result of brain activity, and has the capacity to generate imagination, reflection, self-awareness, humour and ethics (Non-interference in anti-social ways).

However, a person can act against such internal instinct; this ability to go against a logical path (The Conscious constituent of the brain) is due to the Subconscious constituent of the brain.

Although we can estimate what a person will do when faced with certain life choices, based on track record, and a general personality profile, this is not "determinism of a machine". The reason is that in fact the decision is random/unpredictable........we often see a person go against everything they "should be expected" to do; a person with an anti-society profile, can, very unexpectedly, out of nowhere, do an altruistic, self-sacrificing act when such could never have been predicted. This is the proof that humans have "Free Will".

With the technologies of artificial intelligence advancing so quickly, and being, or capable of being, programmed emotively and affectively, and with the technology of neural networking and quantum mechanics, there will come a day, when man will create a new and equal species......"artificial intelligences". It will have a totally independent life of its own, and will have to be recognized as such, and having all rights of humans.

Bob A (Optimist for some parts of the future & Free Will'er)

[Dilip Panjwani]

Sycamore

Google's Quantum Computer

The Next Generation

Search: YouTube (Too long to post here)

Bob A

Hi Bob,
The human brain's capacity to 'imagine', 'reflect' and 'humour' arise because of its ability to make novel connections (apparently random, which means its pre-determinism has not been explained well so far) within its constituent circuits, which computers with artificial intelligence may also have (I am not a computer expert to know for sure... maybe Sid or some computer expert can help us here), but it is an ability which quantum computers are more likely to have, given their properties of superposition and entanglement...
Thus, except for consciousness, everything else, including imagination, reflection and humor, is only complex machinery; consciousness itself also is linked to that machinery, but has additional properties of self-awareness and non-interference with the rest of the complex machinery!!

[Bob Armstrong]

Sycamore

Google's Quantum Computer

The Next Generation

Search: YouTube (Too long to post here)

Bob A

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Dilip:

I agree that "Consciousness" and "alive" seem intimately intertwined. Pargat has gone down a particular aspect of consciousness in his attempted definition: "Self-aware".
,,,,,,

I think it is more than being self-aware. It is also about imagination.

So far AFAIK man has not built any AI capable of imagination. The Sophia robot ... does it spend any time at all thinking of new ideas? New inventions?

We hear so much about Artificial Intelligence (AI), that it is going to take over the world. But AI really only does what WE tell it to do via programming. And I don't see any evidence of that changing.

AI machines do not go hunting for data unless WE program it to do so. Only humans show the imagination to go hunting for data on their own and doing NEW things with that data.

But .... if indeed there is a God that created humans .... it could be fairly asked, are we humans merely God's AI? Did God program us to do the things we do, including our self-examinations? Even our philosophizing?

If yes, it could be argued that even WE are not alive. I recently amended my definition of life to:

"Life is the only process in which the participants in the process are capable of doing , and sometimes do, examinations of the process, without any external programming, directions or control."

By this new definition, we humans are not alive if God programmed us.

On the other hand, if God merely provided us the CAPABILITY to imagine and to self-examine, and we did the imagining and the self-examination on our OWN impetus, then we are alive.

So the question about life at least as applied to humans seems to boil down to ... what MAKES US do the imaginative things we do, and what MAKES US examine the life process?

This requires more knowledge ... about DNA specifically, I believe. Could DNA really be the means that God has used to program us?

And a second question is: could we create a machine with just the CAPABILITY of imagination, of self-examination, and NOT program it to do that, and if yes, would it ever do that?

In terms of typical digital computing ... no, we can't ever give it that capability. But what about quantum computing? I don't know enough about that to give an answer. Can we create a quantum computer that would be capable of imagination / self-examination ON ITS OWN IMPETUS -- NOT PROGRAMMED BY US TO IMAGINE OR SELF-EXAMINE?

[Bob Armstrong]

Pargat's Soul Plan Theology

Pt. I - Post # 71 (24/3/22)
Pt. II - Post # 80 (24/3/23)
Pt. III - Post # 84 (24/3/26)

I have been aware of a theology that has arisen out of the anecdotal recounting of near-death experiences. My own background is Christian Catholic Thomistic (Initially) Theology.... Later the priest/theologian/scientist Teilhard de Chardin.

I will go slowly through your texts, and check out the link.

Thanks for the clear presentation.

Interesting path for our discussion on "Life".......

Bob A (Theist Community)

P.S. When I originated this thread, I hoped for both Religious/Spiritual contribution, as well as Atheistic Humanitarian Ethics. I would like to reaffirm that this thread is not being hijacked by the Spiritualists.......just part of the possibly wider discussion here.

[Bob Armstrong]

Pargat:

PP: "Interesting Question: could Sophia enter FIDE women's chess tournaments? Why or why not?"

BA: Interesting bit of trivia - the first time CFC allowed a chess program to play in a CFC rated official tournament, its opponent was my very good friend, and former CFC President, and Canada's long-time FIDE representative, Phil Haley.

Phil won as I recollect.

Bob A

[Pargat Perrer]

Soul Plan Theology Part 2

....

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Soul Plan Theology Part 3


According to the Soul Plan, we are not ordered by God to incarnate on Earth. We are given free will to decide if and when we want to do so. Almost all souls want to do so, because when you are a soul in Heaven, you know you are immortal and will survive all traumas that Earth can deliver. Not only survive, but you will develop and improve spiritually. There are something like 7 levels of Heaven, and every soul wants to be on the highest level, with God. To rise up in levels, you need to incarnate on Earth and learn lessons.

I think of it this way: you are told that if you get a needle injection, you will experience total bliss forever. For a few seconds, you feel the prick of the needle ... ouch! But after that comes eternal bliss. That is how easy the decision is for souls to incarnate on Earth. Life on Earth is the prick of the needle.

Every incarnation requires planning. This planning is done with every soul with whom you will interact, even on the most trivial level. This is why we experience deja vu ... we briefly "remember" the planning phase we did in Heaven. Deja vu only lasts a few seconds, because we are not meant to remember. We need to live our Earthly lives knowing nothing for sure (scientifically) about our true nature.

Thinking of it from an Earthly computational aspect, each incarnation planning would need to take years and require even beyond petabytes of information. In Heaven, this is no problem at all, from both a time and data perspective. There is a vetting process, in which "elders" go over each Soul Plan and offer suggestions for improvement.

The worst outcome of a Soul Plan is suicide. It happens, and it indicates that a Soul Plan was too ambitious, the soul thought it could handle more than it could in actuality. So it does happen, and each suicide requires a "restart" of the entire planning process for that soul if it wants to still learn the lessons it failed to completely learn.

It is only in this day and age that we are now being exposed on Earth to the Soul Plan knowledge, which seems to indicate that maybe for Earth, we have reached the limit of what we can do and the incarnations will soon stop. Or it could mean that even though it will go on for quite some time yet, we are being "allowed" this information at this time because otherwise the stress of Earthly life would completely overwhelm too many of us.

This is the last installment from me on this theology. I will not respond to criticism, so Neil you can withhold your "sorries". You are all entitled to your opinions in spiritual matters. I happen to know that it doesn't matter at all what anyone believes. We will all have our life reviews at the end of our Earthly life and we will all decide to either reincarnate or not. There is no Hell besides Earth, and we still want to come to Earth to advance spiritually.

If you are at all interested in this theology, I recommend the Youtube channel called "Next Level Soul". Here is a link that can get you started on it, and it has a Canadian psychic medium in this particular video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPGtPTk5ZSM

And for those who think that these mediums are all just trying to make money from books, listen to the video starting at about 20:20 and going for about a couple of minutes ... "can't even pay for my groceries".