Life - How Should It Be Viewed?

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

Here are some revisions to my attempt to compile this theology (I have tried to stick close to my initial compilation, but have also used some of your comments verbatim):

New # 3

3. It is part of the Creator's plan that S/He/It offers each soul the opportunity to go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse). Each soul can decide for itself. Most souls jump at the chance, because they know they will survive no matter how much suffering they go through, and the suffering advances their spiritual understanding. S/he will eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.

[Original that has been now revised:

3. It is part of the Creator's plan that each soul must go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse) to eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.]

New # 6

6. To have suffering occur, some souls choose to practice evil in their lives as part of their individual physical life plan (It is not the Creator who fixes an individual's life plan). These souls are choosing to live evilly to create an environment to the benefit of all souls who incarnate. There is no blame on them for their choice.

[Original that has been now revised:

6. To have suffering occur, some humans are allowed to choose to practice evil in their lives as part of the Creator's Plan.(I assume since they are choosing to live evilly to implement the Creator's Plan, there is no blame on them for their choice).]

New # 8 & # 9


# 8. The above knowledge is a result of the reports of souls experiencing near death experiences and returning and sharing their observations/experiences on the other side.

# 9. There is no 'soul plan" church or movement. There doesn't need to be. No one needs to be "converted". One simply accepts the testimony of “returned” souls, or not.

Does this now capture all the elements of your theology?

I believe for each of us to develop our own Spirituality, we should consider other theological systems, and we should "get right" all the actual elements, from the adherents' point of view, even if this takes some time and discussion beforehand. So it is important to me to attempt to get the approval of some adherents to a compilation that is accurate, for that time.

To this end, I am assembling similarly worded compilations of a number of theologies, so that they may be somewhat more easily compared.

Bob A (Theist)

[Pargat Perrer]

Inconsistencies that Dr. Eben Alexander did not address, and other issues.

Medical Discrepancies

Dr. Laura Potter, the emergency room physician who treated Alexander, contradicts his account. She states that Alexander was placed in a medically induced coma, not one caused by E. coli bacterial meningitis as he claims. Additionally, she notes that Alexander was conscious but delirious when weaned off anesthetics, which challenges his assertion that his brain was too damaged to support any conscious experience


.Inconsistencies in Alexander's Story

Alexander's book omits vittal details, such as the fact that his coma was chemically induced and maintained by anesthetics. This omission is significant because it alters the narrative of his experience and its implications for consciousness

.Legal and Professional Issues

Alexander has a history of malpractice lawsuits, with several settled in the last ten years. One of these cases involved allegations that he falsified medical records to cover up a surgical error. This history raises questions about his credibility and potential motives for fabricating or exaggerating his NDE

.Financial Motives
Alexander has financially benefited significantly from his NDE story, including selling webinars, books, and memberships to an organization he co-founded. This financial gain could be seen as a motive to embellish or fabricate his experience

.Response to Criticism

Despite the criticisms, Alexander has maintained that he stands by every word in his book. However, he has not adequately addressed the discrepancies medical professionals and investigative journalists pointed out.

.Given these points, it appears that there is substantial evidence to question the authenticity and accuracy of Dr. Eben Alexander's account of his near-death experience. While he remains steadfast in his claims, the medical community and investigative reports have raised significant doubts about his story.

Ok, it was bacterial meningitis ... I always get that confused with viral encephalitis ... LOL.

Anyway .... You just posted a boatload of allegations WITH NO EVIDENCE.

You provided one name: Dr. Laura Potter. Who the f**k is she and has SHE profited financially from her story?

If a coma is induced medically, would that not be on the record? Where is that record? If there is no such record, it is a "he said - she said" situation and I think the statement of a neurosurgeon must be considered above the statement of an ER physician who we know nothing about. Maybe she's a single mom with a heroin addiction ... just to be melodramatic LOL.

Malpractice suits: HOW MANY? You say 1 of them involves a falsified record ... WHAT IS KNOWN ABOUT THIS? You can't just post this shit and not have evidence. If the suits were settled and no information can be released, then you have NOTHING. The suit may have been settled without Dr. Alexander admitting any guilt, therefore he is innocent.

Dr. Alexanders "financial benefits" from his NDE story: PLEASE ELABORATE. HOW MUCH? HOW MUCH RELATIVE TO HIS EARNINGS AS A NEUROSURGEON? Probably a pittance, but you bring it up anyway because it adds to your denial story. I very much doubt he needed or cares about any tiny financial benefits from his story. I have heard from many NDE book authors saying they LOSE MONEY at publishing their stories. They don't care about that. They experienced something you can only hope to experience.

Come on, Sid, you are so great at making allegations, so PISSPOOR at supporting them.

I think we need to consider a very basic question, related to your claims of Dr. Alexander's financial benefits from his story....

What would it profit a world-reknowned brain neurosurgeon who was an atheist and believed as a brain specialist that no consciousness can exist outside of a working brain .... to invent a story of going during a coma (medically-induced or not) to another dimension, another reality, where love is overwhelming and physics is totally different from this world, and where he had full consciousness despite not having a working brain?

Why would he do it if it wasn't absolutely true?

[Sid Belzberg]

Inconsistencies that Dr. Eben Alexander did not address, and other issues.

Medical Discrepancies

Dr. Laura Potter, the emergency room physician who treated Alexander, contradicts his account. She states that Alexander was placed in a medically induced coma, not one caused by E. coli bacterial meningitis as he claims. Additionally, she notes that Alexander was conscious but delirious when weaned off anesthetics, which challenges his assertion that his brain was too damaged to support any conscious experience


.Inconsistencies in Alexander's Story

Alexander's book omits vittal details, such as the fact that his coma was chemically induced and maintained by anesthetics. This omission is significant because it alters the narrative of his experience and its implications for consciousness

.Legal and Professional Issues

Alexander has a history of malpractice lawsuits, with several settled in the last ten years. One of these cases involved allegations that he falsified medical records to cover up a surgical error. This history raises questions about his credibility and potential motives for fabricating or exaggerating his NDE

.Financial Motives
Alexander has financially benefited significantly from his NDE story, including selling webinars, books, and memberships to an organization he co-founded. This financial gain could be seen as a motive to embellish or fabricate his experience

.Response to Criticism

Despite the criticisms, Alexander has maintained that he stands by every word in his book. However, he has not adequately addressed the discrepancies medical professionals and investigative journalists pointed out.

.Given these points, it appears that there is substantial evidence to question the authenticity and accuracy of Dr. Eben Alexander's account of his near-death experience. While he remains steadfast in his claims, the medical community and investigative reports have raised significant doubts about his story.

[Pargat Perrer]

You are the real nutjob, PP. Despite showing you evidence a long time ago here on chesstalk that the guy you worship for near death experiences was a fraud, you continue to worship such fellas and their scientifically non-sensical theories...

You showed no such "evidence", you just gave your grossly uninformed opinion. In case readers are wondering who we are talking about, it is Dr. Eben Alexander, world-famous brain neurosurgeon, who inexplicably suffered a bout of viral encephalitis, went into a 7-day coma, during which the protective layer around his brain was totally destroyed. He only had a 10% chance of coming out of the coma, and no one had ever suffered so much damage and lived to tell about it, or else they were a total vegetable for the rest of their life. Dr. Alexander not only came out of the coma, he suffered NO BRAIN MALFUNCTION and doctors still to this day cannot explain it, and this is ALL MEDICALLY DOCUMENTED so that if Dilip's statement of fraud had any impact LOL, Dilip could be sued for libel.

I do not "worship" anybody except occasionally the Creator, something you will do when you return from where you came.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

My apologies for the inadvertance re Dilip........I was very interested in your view, and made the wrong assumption it was you who had made the rather extensive response. I will try to be more alert when we're engaged in posting.

I hope to further respond to both you and Dilip.

I believe that spirituality is one of the most important life "facts/ alleged facts" about which humans must decide before they die.

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

You are the real nutjob, PP. Despite showing you evidence a long time ago here on chesstalk that the guy you worship for near death experiences was a fraud, you continue to worship such fellas and their scientifically non-sensical theories...

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Pargat:

I am trying to sort out what I would call "your theology".......it is somewhat different..........

1. There is some all-powerful Spiritual Creator.
2. S/he/It created immortal, non-material, eternal human souls.
3. It is part of the Creator's plan that each soul must go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse) to eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.
4. Most humans incorporate into their material world plan to have a conscience, and to practice understanding and empathy.
5. But, for this suffering to occur, Evil must exist in this material world in order to test us. We are also just materially suffering from the start because we need certain elements just to maintain our human, material life (Air, food, etc.). We also suffer from the fact that as material human beings, we not only have to have Maslow's basic hierarchy of needs, but we have "WANTS, beyond needs", and we sometimes suffer striving to achieve them. Our needs can never be eternally fulfilled here....we must one day die.
6. To have suffering occur, some humans are allowed to choose to practice evil in their lives as part of the Creator's Plan.(I assume since they are choosing to live evilly to implement the Creator's Plan, there is no blame on them for their choice).
7. All creatures eventually go to Heaven (There is no Hell) and live without any needs ever being unmet.



Let me know where I've gotten it wrong.....I've inserted a few elements that seem to me required to make your theology seamless.

I'd be interested in what other CT'ers think of this as a "theology"!

Bob A

The only part you didn't get right is point 3 where you wrote "each soul must go through a period of suffering in a material world... "...

No, the Creator doesn't force any soul to incarnate on Earth or any other planet in the Universe (there are billions of them, according to many NDEers). Instead, the Creator "offers each soul the opportunity to incarnate into a physical universe" and the soul can decide for itself. Most souls jump at the chance, because they know they will survive no matter how much suffering they go through, and the suffering advances their spiritual understanding.

Also, your point 6 is only relevant to those people of Earth who seem because of their evil nature to "have no soul" or no conscience. Hitler, Stalin, Trump, etc, etc, For the rest of the souls, practising evil is part of THEIR life plan, not part of the CREATOR'S plan. So the Hitlers and Stalins etc are required to set the environment at some particular time and place to be mostly evil in nature, and it is in this evil environment that human suffering can be enhanced for the good of all the souls who want to suffer here on Earth.

This "soul plan" idea is not really a theology in the sense of an invented system of thought. It is the message that comes back to us via those who have been allowed to briefly return to the other side via death, and then be returned after getting some information that is allowed to be spread to the incarnates on Earth. As such, there is no 'soul plan" church or movement. There doesn't need to be. No one needs to be "converted".

[Pargat Perrer]

Thanks Pargat......I would not have gone to the trouble I did, if I was not trying to understand.

I am now a believer in my own theology, not the one in which I was raised.

I will consider your comments carefully.

Bob A

Bob, please pay more attention. It was I who responded to you with those comments. It was Dilip, the Libertarian nutjob.

This is the 2nd or 3rd time you have thought I was responding to you when it was someone else. Please LOOK at who is responding to you.

[Bob Armstrong]

Thanks Pargat......I would not have gone to the trouble I did, if I was not trying to understand.

I am now a believer in my own theology, not the one in which I was raised.

I will consider your comments carefully.

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Pargat:

I am trying to sort out what I would call "your theology".......it is somewhat different..........

1. There is some all-powerful Spiritual Creator.

If it is necessary to postulate a Creator for all the mass and energy in the universe, it would obviously become necessary to postulate a creator of the creator, a creator of the creator of the creator, and so forth into insanity... And if you apply the double standard that we can stop postulating after postulating the first creator, then the obvious question is: Why do you not stop at the existing mass and energy itself, saying that it has always existed in some form or the other, like you postulate about the first creator?
Remember the golden rule when searching for truth: Do not make postulations unless you have to!

2. S/he/It created immortal, non-material, eternal human souls.

For truth-seekers anchored in science (the only reliable path to truth), anything which is non-material (non-mass, non-energy) is fictitious...


3. It is part of the Creator's plan that each soul must go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse) to eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.

How cruel of this 'supposed to be benevolent creator'!


4. Most humans incorporate into their material world plan to have a conscience, and to practice understanding and empathy.
5. But, for this suffering to occur, Evil must exist in this material world in order to test us. We are also just materially suffering from the start because we need certain elements just to maintain our human, material life (Air, food, etc.). We also suffer from the fact that as material human beings, we not only have to have Maslow's basic hierarchy of needs, but we have "WANTS, beyond needs", and we sometimes suffer striving to achieve them. Our needs can never be eternally fulfilled here....we must one day die.

What a chaotic system! Deliberately 'created' by this 'supposed to be all-powerful entity'? Even Kamala Harris or any democratic Marxist could have done a better job, eh?


6. To have suffering occur, some humans are allowed to choose to practice evil in their lives as part of the Creator's Plan.(I assume since they are choosing to live evilly to implement the Creator's Plan, there is no blame on them for their choice).
7. All creatures eventually go to Heaven (There is no Hell) and live without any needs ever being unmet.

Death also ends all needs, does it not?




Let me know where I've gotten it wrong.....I've inserted a few elements that seem to me required to make your theology seamless.

I'd be interested in what other CT'ers think of this as a "theology"!

Bob A

Bob, if you are a sincere truth-seeker, and not a 'blind believer' in the theology you incidentally happened to be born into, you will ponder long and hard over the comments above (in bold italics, underlined, below some of your numbered points)...

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

I am trying to sort out what I would call "your theology".......it is somewhat different..........

1. There is some all-powerful Spiritual Creator.
2. S/he/It created immortal, non-material, eternal human souls.
3. It is part of the Creator's plan that each soul must go through a period of suffering in a material world (Life in the Multi-verse) to eventually make his/her way back to a spiritual realm (Heaven) to be with the Creator forever.
4. Most humans incorporate into their material world plan to have a conscience, and to practice understanding and empathy.
5. But, for this suffering to occur, Evil must exist in this material world in order to test us. We are also just materially suffering from the start because we need certain elements just to maintain our human, material life (Air, food, etc.). We also suffer from the fact that as material human beings, we not only have to have Maslow's basic hierarchy of needs, but we have "WANTS, beyond needs", and we sometimes suffer striving to achieve them. Our needs can never be eternally fulfilled here....we must one day die.
6. To have suffering occur, some humans are allowed to choose to practice evil in their lives as part of the Creator's Plan.(I assume since they are choosing to live evilly to implement the Creator's Plan, there is no blame on them for their choice).
7. All creatures eventually go to Heaven (There is no Hell) and live without any needs ever being unmet.



Let me know where I've gotten it wrong.....I've inserted a few elements that seem to me required to make your theology seamless.

I'd be interested in what other CT'ers think of this as a "theology"!

Bob A

[Pargat Perrer]

Hi Pargat:

You: on the topic of evil: "evil in human society (necessary for our spiritual growth)".



Interesting point of view........I'm sorry, but I can't remember from your posts, whether you are religious (Meaning that you believe in some omnipotent, spiritual/non-material "Creator"). I normally use "religious" to mean adhering to some religious belief system; I use "spiritual" for someone who does not believe or believes outside of any of the religions.

If you are not religious, are you saying that evil, though a bad thing in humans and human institutions, has the silver lining that it continuously forces us to choose between the good and the evil, and that hopefully, we are rising to the occasion and becoming more confirmed in good living ethics?

If you are religious, did this Creator create evil along with everything else?

You needn't go into this if this is a private issue for you........but I'm curious.

Thanks.

Bob A

Hi Bob, I did post on this in this thread, posts 71, 80 and 84. The first paragraph of post 84 is where I very briefly explain why we incarnate on Earth. We come here to experience hardship, and because we are immortal souls, we very often overestimate how much hardship we can manage. This is why suicides sometimes happen ... we went too far in our plans.

In order for this to work, evil must be permitted on Earth and in fact can never be eradicated from Earth. The very fact that we all need food, water, air means we are fighting for survival at all times, and for some of us, this leads to giving in to evil to achieve our needs, but more importantly, also our WANTS.

On the other side (aka Heaven), nobody strives for riches or wealth because we have all we need or could want already. This physical universe was PURPOSEFULLY engineered by its creator to not allow our needs or wants to ever be fulfilled here.

Case in point: there cannot ever be a perpetual motion machine. There can never be totally free energy (nuclear fusion hold the promise to be free energy, but I think we will find some limitation because it is built into the Universe that nothing is free, everything has a cost, if looked at from a human perspective). Nuclear fusion will turn out to have some limiting cost that we haven't figured out yet.

In the case of extreme evil, -- Hitler, Putin, Stalin etc. -- these are souls that agreed to live such lives in order to ensure that the world keeps being a place of extreme hardship. These souls will never stop coming to bring some new hell to Earth. The Creator has already forgiven them, knowing they are necessary to the spiritual growth of everyone. We wouldn't learn anything here if we all lived lives of total luxury.

Does it mean you can say, "Ok, then I guess I can just do anything I want and even kill others to get what I want in life." Yes, you can say that, but you will only actually go ahead and DO that if you incorporated it into your plan. If you didn't, you will always be unable to live like that, because you put it into your Earth life that you would have things like empathy and understanding and a conscience.

Those of us who live very saintly lives are the opposite of the Hitlers ... they are souls that are here to show us that we are spiritual beings and basically to give us hope despite all the suffering we go through. Most of us are not allowed to remember where we came from. But some people, an increasing number of people thanks to health care technology, can be brought back from death even after many minutes, and remember being greeted on the other side.

[Dilip Panjwani]

Yesterday, the main stream media applauded Biden for going to hurricane ravaged Florida to 'inspect' the damage. He did so at the taxpayers expense, burning precious fuel, and creating un-necessary pollution. He learnt nothing that was not already widely known, and no Floridian was better off from his visit than he/she would have been without it! Another sad commentary on our society's norms...

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

You: on the topic of evil: "evil in human society (necessary for our spiritual growth)".



Interesting point of view........I'm sorry, but I can't remember from your posts, whether you are religious (Meaning that you believe in some omnipotent, spiritual/non-material "Creator"). I normally use "religious" to mean adhering to some religious belief system; I use "spiritual" for someone who does not believe or believes outside of any of the religions.

If you are not religious, are you saying that evil, though a bad thing in humans and human institutions, has the silver lining that it continuously forces us to choose between the good and the evil, and that hopefully, we are rising to the occasion and becoming more confirmed in good living ethics?

If you are religious, did this Creator create evil along with everything else?

You needn't go into this if this is a private issue for you........but I'm curious.

Thanks.

Bob A

[Pargat Perrer]

Movie stars and sports figures do extremely little for the betterment of society... less that what a janitor does, and yet the main-stream media glorifies them beyond all proportion, leading to stupid fans pouring out tons of cash to make these guys & gals very, very rich! A sad commentary on our society's norms...

Totally agree with you about sports figures. We keep hearing that famous sports figures are good because they encourage kids to "stay off the streets" and be involved in sports.

Kids should never want to make a living on the streets in the first place! (by "on the streets", I mean drug dealing, pickpocketing, mugging, etc.). It us up to their parents to instill in them some decent values.

In my opinion, all pro sports should be eradicated. Pro athletes should be rechanneled into working for the good of the planet. We can still have exciting amateur sports, including my favorites hockey and tennis.

I encourage anyone to only support AMATEUR sports. Do not pay $$$ to attend Toronto Make Believes or Toronto You Pays games. Oh yeah and Toronto Raptunes.

For movie stars, not quite the same thing, because often they are portraying roles that expose the evil nature of society. However, given my beliefs about evil in human society (necessary for our spiritual growth), nothing that movie stars or anyone else does will change anything, but if they feel better for trying, good for them.

But Dilip, what you wrote goes against your libertarian beliefs, doesn't it? If these movie stars and athletes are getting rich, they are doing exactly what "smart and hard working" businesspeople are doing. After all, libertarianism does NOT judge the businesses themselves ... only the P&L statements .....