The fent fold

[Dilip Panjwani]

You do seem to be forgetting the explanations on Chesstalk for Natural Law and 'circles within circles'... Chesstalk does maintain all of these, if you need them...

The Non-Criminal Addicts do need help from friends and relatives, the local 'circles', the local church or whichever community group exists near them, etc., including getting them into a hospital for intensive management, etc. As you have eloquently pointed out, the politicians in charge of our 'government' are not able to do so...

[Peter McKillop]

You forgot to mention the doctors who are over-prescribing these addicting medications

I didn't say my list was meant to be all-encompassing. I simply gave some examples. Therefore I didn't forget anything.

... If our 'government' stops doing the myriad useless and counter-productive activities they are doing, and concentrate only on enforcing the Natural Law, all who get harmed will get adequately compensated by those who cause the harm... and this would be the best way to discourage future crime.

Dilip, imo you lose credibility when you keep trying to coast through discussions by invoking "Natural Law" without properly explaining what it is, how it would be administered, who will make the decisions, how will they be appointed to these positions, etc., etc. From my point of view, you've used the term so many times without explaining it that it's become meaningless, a recurring joke that long ago ceased to be funny. The same comments apply to "circles within circles."

As for forcing criminals to work, it would be excellent if our jails ensure that criminals work in whatever way they best can generate money to compensate those they have harmed and also to look after themselves.

Precisely how do the jails "ensure" that criminals work? And while the jails are busy doing that, who will be looking after all of the non-criminal addicts that need help?

[Dilip Panjwani]

I was talking about the whole blame chain not just drug dealers. For example, what about addicts whose mental health issues were caused or exacerbated by abusive parents? How about the pharmaceutical manufacturers? Don't they own part of the blame? How about politicians? It seems to me that many politicians secretly prefer the status quo. They don't want to pay for programs that would address the issues more effectively but they're appalled by extreme solutions (think nazi Germany). Sometimes I wonder if their preferred secret solution is for addicts to keep ODing on the streets, except quicker!

As for the rest (forcing people to work), you didn't answer my questions. Why? No concrete ideas?

You forgot to mention the doctors who are over-prescribing these addicting medications... If our 'government' stops doing the myriad useless and counter-productive activities they are doing, and concentrate only on enforcing the Natural Law, all who get harmed will get adequately compensated by those who cause the harm... and this would be the best way to discourage future crime.

As for forcing criminals to work, it would be excellent if our jails ensure that criminals work in whatever way they best can generate money to compensate those they have harmed and also to look after themselves.

[Peter McKillop]

Of course, the drug cartels have to compensate their victims too...

If they are able to physically harm others, they are certainly well enough to work!

I was talking about the whole blame chain not just drug dealers. For example, what about addicts whose mental health issues were caused or exacerbated by abusive parents? How about the pharmaceutical manufacturers? Don't they own part of the blame? How about politicians? It seems to me that many politicians secretly prefer the status quo. They don't want to pay for programs that would address the issues more effectively but they're appalled by extreme solutions (think nazi Germany). Sometimes I wonder if their preferred secret solution is for addicts to keep ODing on the streets, except quicker!

As for the rest (forcing people to work), you didn't answer my questions. Why? No concrete ideas?

[Dilip Panjwani]

how about compensating drug addicts and alcoholics whose mental health issues and other problems have been caused or exacerbated by others?

And when you talk about "forcefully" making sick people work...

Of course, the drug cartels have to compensate their victims too...

If they are able to physically harm others, they are certainly well enough to work!

[Peter McKillop]

What about compensating the victims who have already been harmed? There seems to be not a single thought given to that by followers of DM!
The only way to force those who perpetrated the harm to compensate their victims is by forcefully making them work, in other words, a jail, not a cozy hospital, where they are not forced to work...
And making them work would enable them to pay for their health care too...

When you say "compensating the victims who have already been harmed" I assume you're referring to those who have been victimized by drug/alcohol addicts, etc. Which makes me wonder where this chain of blame should end. For instance, how about compensating drug addicts and alcoholics whose mental health issues and other problems have been caused or exacerbated by others?

And when you talk about "forcefully" making sick people work, what kind of/how much force would you use and what would you do if some of those sick people were unable and/or unwilling to work? What would your Natural Law do with people like that? Would they face a lifetime of confinement or something worse?

[Dilip Panjwani]

Democratic Marxism



Democratic Marxist Government - Definitely would find humane ways to help with the mental health sufferers within a "health" (Not criminal) context, and offer secure streets at night to the citizens.

Bob A (Democratic Marxist)

What about compensating the victims who have already been harmed? There seems to be not a single thought given to that by followers of DM!
The only way to force those who perpetrated the harm to compensate their victims is by forcefully making them work, in other words, a jail, not a cozy hospital, where they are not forced to work...
And making them work would enable them to pay for their health care too...

[Tom O'Donnell]

A couple of partial solutions:

1) Stop sending soldiers to fight wars that have nothing to do with Canada. Saves money, saves lives of young Canadians, and you won't get people returning having seen things that might make anyone become an addict.

2) Stop allowing the immigration of people who are a net drain on our resources. Money saved can be used to help Canadians. Kick all the people here illegally out, for the same reason.

Hi Dilip:

As you well know, on your solution to this problem, we agree to disagree.

Society should be able to do better, be more humane and empathetic. It is not a criminal problem (NOT jail). It is a medical/health problem that is causing stress in the general society.

Unfortunately, solutions other than Dilip's seem currently, in our right-wing, individualistic emphasis, society, seem to be in short supply.

The one's that seem to meet my criteria are said to be too expensive in the opinion of the ordinary taxpayer (As interpreted by the right of centre governments).

If jail is the only solution, then Neo-Liberal Capitalism is more of a disaster than even I think it is!

Bob A

[Bob Armstrong]

Democratic Marxism



Vlad:

Some worthwhile points.

Democratic Marxist Government - Definitely would find humane ways to help with the mental health sufferers within a "health" (Not criminal) context, and offer secure streets at night to the citizens.

........definitely will not "execute the drug addicts" [Your words] (I assume your evidence for this comes from historical precedent in some old-style USSR Communist Government. For DM, these governments are a bastardization of Marx/Engels writings, and the worst species of "Socialism").

Bob A (Democratic Marxist)

[Vlad Drkulec]

[QUOTE=Bob Armstrong;n242541]It is a sad commentary on our society to have no answer to this night security issue Vlad.{/QUOTE]

Neither in the incident in Calgary nor in Windsor did I feel that there was a security issue. Unlike the fiends in the Walking Dead, these people were uninterested in those around them. Maybe there might be some issues when they are not high but most seemed emaciated.

I have friends who live in Belleville and Sault Ste. Marie. They tell me as well of night-time security issues in both cities (I'm not centring them out, and I know Vlad is not re Windsor; many Ontario cities are suddenly facing this somewhat dystopian problem). I believe my friend who's home town was Kingston has referred to the same problem there.

Last summer I visited some friends in the Soo. I happily announced that I was going to go for a walk before bed (My Toronto neighbourhood is quite safe, and my wife and I have no fear of doing this). "Are you crazy?" was the response! Apparently they, and they also are seniors, and happen to be female seniors, said they NEVER go out once it is dark!

Are there no solutions? Do the solutions cost so much that the cities cannot afford to implement them? How are we measuring the cost of "quality of life"?

The solution is to not walk at night and not to present as an easy target. Governments tend to be easy on crime because it is easier for them for everyone to be scared and pliable. Keeping someone in jail is expensive. Governments like to save money, even if it means that you have to die as a result. As a bonus, they get to save on your pension.

What I do know is that in so far as any of this concern arises in the mental health field, mental health support for those with mental challenges is woefully inadequate at all three levels of Canadian governments (And, as you know, I am aware of this sector of society, having myself severe Bi-Polar Disorder).

Mental health of someone who is going to perpetrate violence is pretty much irrelevant. Your first duty is to remove yourself from the danger or to not be there when the danger arrives. The hard part is when the bad guys and you are there and the game is afoot.

[QUOTE] As well, various approaches have been tried to support those with drug addictions, so that they are not turning to crime to survive.....but these have been controversial, and in the current right-wing climate of cut-backs, these services seem always to be the first to go. Save the tax payer dollar; then the tax payer can be prisoner in their homes from dark 'til dawn? Of course, some offer the rather Neanderthal solution of just jailing them all (Sigh).[QUOTE]

Those measures that you are suggesting just make the situation worse.

The world is suffering this problem.......are not drug cartels swimming in cash at the present??

They were but things are not as rosy these days.

I note that the world economy is fundamentally neo-liberal capitalist. Why has this situation been allowed to arise by our governments and our economy. Do neither have answers?

Bob A

If we were a Marxist society we would simply execute the drug addicts.

[Dilip Panjwani]

Hi Dilip:

As you well know, on your solution to this problem, we agree to disagree.

Society should be able to do better, be more humane and empathetic. It is not a criminal problem (NOT jail). It is a medical/health problem that is causing stress in the general society.

Unfortunately, solutions other than Dilip's seem currently, in our right-wing, individualistic emphasis, society, seem to be in short supply.

The one's that seem to meet my criteria are said to be too expensive in the opinion of the ordinary taxpayer (As interpreted by the right of centre governments).

If jail is the only solution, then Neo-Liberal Capitalism is more of a disaster than even I think it is!

Bob A

Dear Bob,
Don't you think harming others (except in fair competition) is a crime? Even if it is somebody's brain telling him/her to harm others, it is still a crime, and the criminal has to learn to compensate the person he/she has harmed... the best way to let his/her brain know that it has to find other ways to act than harming someone...
As you pointed out, this is a serious issue for our society, and so let us not avoid discussing the facts to reach a truthful conclusion, by hiding behind the statement 'let us agree to disagree'...

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Dilip:

As you well know, on your solution to this problem, we agree to disagree.

Society should be able to do better, be more humane and empathetic. It is not a criminal problem (NOT jail). It is a medical/health problem that is causing stress in the general society.

Unfortunately, solutions other than Dilip's seem currently, in our right-wing, individualistic emphasis, society, seem to be in short supply.

The one's that seem to meet my criteria are said to be too expensive in the opinion of the ordinary taxpayer (As interpreted by the right of centre governments).

If jail is the only solution, then Neo-Liberal Capitalism is more of a disaster than even I think it is!

Bob A

[Dilip Panjwani]

It is a sad commentary on our society to have no answer to this night security issue Vlad.

I have friends who live in Belleville and Sault Ste. Marie. They tell me as well of night-time security issues in both cities (I'm not centring them out, and I know Vlad is not re Windsor; many Ontario cities are suddenly facing this somewhat dystopian problem). I believe my friend who's home town was Kingston has referred to the same problem there.

Last summer I visited some friends in the Soo. I happily announced that I was going to go for a walk before bed (My Toronto neighbourhood is quite safe, and my wife and I have no fear of doing this). "Are you crazy?" was the response! Apparently they, and they also are seniors, and happen to be female seniors, said they NEVER go out once it is dark!

Are there no solutions? Do the solutions cost so much that the cities cannot afford to implement them? How are we measuring the cost of "quality of life"?

What I do know is that in so far as any of this concern arises in the mental health field, mental health support for those with mental challenges is woefully inadequate at all three levels of Canadian governments (And, as you know, I am aware of this sector of society, having myself severe Bi-Polar Disorder).

As well, various approaches have been tried to support those with drug addictions, so that they are not turning to crime to survive.....but these have been controversial, and in the current right-wing climate of cut-backs, these services seem always to be the first to go. Save the tax payer dollar; then the tax payer can be prisoner in their homes from dark 'til dawn? Of course, some offer the rather Neanderthal solution of just jailing them all (Sigh).

The world is suffering this problem.......are not drug cartels swimming in cash at the present??

I note that the world economy is fundamentally neo-liberal capitalist. Why has this situation been allowed to arise by our governments and our economy. Do neither have answers?

Bob A

Thank you, Bob, for highlighting the problem. There is one point, though (highlighted by me above), which you should not write off so casually. If they have been proven to harm others, or are using the public spaces as their homes (which is also harming the public), they need to be put in very low security jails where they are made to work to pay for their housing, meals, health care and clothing in the jail (and also compensate the individuals they may have harmed), till they get into the habit of working and can get a job and housing outside the jail. And the same needs to be done to the drug cartels. That would be the fairest way of solving this problem, right?

[Bob Armstrong]

It is a sad commentary on our society to have no answer to this night security issue Vlad.

I have friends who live in Belleville and Sault Ste. Marie. They tell me as well of night-time security issues in both cities (I'm not centring them out, and I know Vlad is not re Windsor; many Ontario cities are suddenly facing this somewhat dystopian problem). I believe my friend who's home town was Kingston has referred to the same problem there.

Last summer I visited some friends in the Soo. I happily announced that I was going to go for a walk before bed (My Toronto neighbourhood is quite safe, and my wife and I have no fear of doing this). "Are you crazy?" was the response! Apparently they, and they also are seniors, and happen to be female seniors, said they NEVER go out once it is dark!

Are there no solutions? Do the solutions cost so much that the cities cannot afford to implement them? How are we measuring the cost of "quality of life"?

What I do know is that in so far as any of this concern arises in the mental health field, mental health support for those with mental challenges is woefully inadequate at all three levels of Canadian governments (And, as you know, I am aware of this sector of society, having myself severe Bi-Polar Disorder).

As well, various approaches have been tried to support those with drug addictions, so that they are not turning to crime to survive.....but these have been controversial, and in the current right-wing climate of cut-backs, these services seem always to be the first to go. Save the tax payer dollar; then the tax payer can be prisoner in their homes from dark 'til dawn? Of course, some offer the rather Neanderthal solution of just jailing them all (Sigh).

The world is suffering this problem.......are not drug cartels swimming in cash at the present??

I note that the world economy is fundamentally neo-liberal capitalist. Why has this situation been allowed to arise by our governments and our economy. Do neither have answers?

Bob A

[Vlad Drkulec]

I saw my first fent folded person in Windsor on Tecumseh Road near Howard last week when heading home from an appointment. He was in the bus shelter on the southwest corner across the street from the Tim Horton's. I mentioned this to my brothers who are doctors and dentists and they said that there are many fentanyl users in the Windsor area. Living in a suburb of Windsor, Tecumseh where we have grocery stores one km to three km away, Costco being about 10 km away. The only time I leave my bubble is when I have a doctor's appointment or other health care appointment somewhere in Windsor or the occasional visit into Windsor.