OYCC April 18/19/20

[George Zhou]

Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

George, hi - can you point us to the "CYCC rule doesn't allow younger age play up", e.g. is it in the entry form, the CFC handbook, or elsewhere? My recollection is that players in the past have been allowed to play up at the CYCC.

Thanks.

Hi Andrew,
Congratulations again ! (in addition to my verbal congratulations on site), Rebecca swept all boy players, very impressive.

Regarding younger players cannot play up, I am 100% for sure it is not allowed in CYCC, it is somewhere says not allowed unless gets CFC approval to play up, I remember that last year my daughter tried to play up, CFC disapproved it, also the organizer has announced before the tournament on site that younger players couldn't play up.



So I hope there was a clear item written in handbook, how can be approved to play up, for example, player has to use bursary from provincial YCC like this year U16G OYCC winner, or top 10 rated players(qualifying rule for cycc) in the upper section, etc.

I hope it is not something that CFC or organizer feels player A can play up or cannot, approve because player wants completion in upper section not winning upper section title, or disapprove because the player wants to avoid competition in lower section and try to win upper section not considering player's rating is in top 10 or top 3 in upper section.

I know it is confusing that CYCC does not allow play up while provincial YCC, NAYCC, WYCC other YCC allow play up freely. Even one of the Ottawa CYCC organizer himself was confused last year and posted in chess talk when he saw Jason Cao registered in U18 open section in NAYCC.

sometimes I see organizers not knowing more than parents.


My recollection is that players in the past have been allowed to play up at the CYCC. I believed that too, but my own experience told me that CYCC doesn't allow play up, unless CFC approves it or CFC doesn't notice it(not possible to win anything, CFC doesn't care in that case)

[Andrew Giblon]

Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

Hi Andrew,
Regarding younger players cannot play up, I am 100% for sure it is not allowed in CYCC, it is somewhere says not allowed unless gets CFC approval to play up, I remember that last year my daughter tried to play up, CFC disapproved it, also the organizer has announced before the tournament on site that younger players couldn't play up.



So I hope there was a clear item written in handbook, how can be approved to play up, for example, player has to use bursary from provincial YCC like this year U16G OYCC winner, or top 10 rated players(qualifying rule for cycc) in the upper section, etc.

I hope it is not something that CFC or organizer feels player A can play up or cannot, approve because player wants completion in upper section not winning upper section title, or disapprove because the player wants to avoid competition in lower section and try to win upper section not considering player's rating is in top 10 or top 3 in upper section.

I know it is confusing that CYCC does not allow play up while provincial YCC, NAYCC, WYCC other YCC allow play up freely. Even one of the Ottawa CYCC organizer himself was confused last year and posted in chess talk when he saw Jason Cao registered in U18 open section in NAYCC.

sometimes I see organizers not knowing more than parents.


My recollection is that players in the past have been allowed to play up at the CYCC. I believed that too, but my own experience told me that CYCC doesn't allow play up, unless CFC approves it or CFC doesn't notice it(not possible to win anything, CFC doesn't care in that case)

George, I went looking in two places authoritative public places:

1. CFC Handbook at http://www.chess.ca/handbook#section-7 - I don't see anything there that prevents playing up.
2. CFC web site at http://chess.ca/2014-cycc - It just gives a "Born after" date, e.g. "Under 10 (Born on or after Jan 1st 2004)", which means that anyone Under 8 could in theory enter Under 10.

Does anyone else have any information to the contrary?

[Andrew Giblon]

Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

Hi Andrew,
Congratulations again ! (in addition to my verbal congratulations on site), Rebecca swept all boy players, very impressive.

George, thanks again for your good wishes, which I will pass on to Rebecca.

[John Coleman]

Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

The event website http://echecsmontreal.ca/cycc/info_en.html says, under Sections:

"Age as of January 1st 2014. Participants wishing to play in a higher section must submit a written request before July 1, 2014 to the 2014 CYCC Organizers and obtain their approval."

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

When we decided to organize the tournament, we couldn't find any rules on playing up, so we decided to only allow it in some cases.

We sometimes had a lot of problems while allowing everyone to play up in tournaments. Often, a lot of people simply wait until the last minute to register in the weaker section... Obviously the goal of a CYCC is to determine who are the strongest players in each age category, not who was lucky to end up in a weaker section. Something similar happened to the 2013 NAYCC (although not for the same reasons) where the U18 was extremely strong, and the other sections extremely weak.

In any case, if a player won the OYCC by playing up and register in advance, I don't think there should be an issue in allowing him/her to play up in the CYCC.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Re : Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

I think the principle "everything which is not forbidden is allowed" can be applied to the CYCC too.

Unless "Age as of January 1st 2014. Participants wishing to play in a higher section must submit a written request before July 1, 2014 to the 2014 CYCC Organizers and obtain their approval" was approved by CFC Execs, it can be discarded. As I recall the bid had not such clause.

[Felix Dumont]

Re : Re: Re : Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

I think the principle "everything which is not forbidden is allowed" can be applied to the CYCC too.

Unless "Age as of January 1st 2014. Participants wishing to play in a higher section must submit a written request before July 1, 2014 to the 2014 CYCC Organizers and obtain their approval" was approved by CFC Execs, it can be discarded. As I recall the bid had not such clause.

With all due respect, I don't think the CFC should or even could force organizers to change their rules once they have been announced, especially nearly one year after. The CFC already has a lot of difficulty finding organizers, and you would want to make their life even more complicated? Allowing players to play up would result in a lot of people waiting at the very last minute to register and might end up in some loss of registrations. We have made a lot of efforts to get registrations as early as possible, as the financial success of the tournament depends a lot on this.

The vote could be for 2015 onwards, but then again nobody shown interest for the 2015 CYCC and CO and giving more restrictions to organizers cannot help.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

Hi Andrew,
Congratulations again ! (in addition to my verbal congratulations on site), Rebecca swept all boy players, very impressive.

Regarding younger players cannot play up, I am 100% for sure it is not allowed in CYCC, it is somewhere says not allowed unless gets CFC approval to play up, I remember that last year my daughter tried to play up, CFC disapproved it, also the organizer has announced before the tournament on site that younger players couldn't play up.



So I hope there was a clear item written in handbook, how can be approved to play up, for example, player has to use bursary from provincial YCC like this year U16G OYCC winner, or top 10 rated players(qualifying rule for cycc) in the upper section, etc.

I hope it is not something that CFC or organizer feels player A can play up or cannot, approve because player wants completion in upper section not winning upper section title, or disapprove because the player wants to avoid competition in lower section and try to win upper section not considering player's rating is in top 10 or top 3 in upper section.

I know it is confusing that CYCC does not allow play up while provincial YCC, NAYCC, WYCC other YCC allow play up freely. Even one of the Ottawa CYCC organizer himself was confused last year and posted in chess talk when he saw Jason Cao registered in U18 open section in NAYCC.

sometimes I see organizers not knowing more than parents.


My recollection is that players in the past have been allowed to play up at the CYCC. I believed that too, but my own experience told me that CYCC doesn't allow play up, unless CFC approves it or CFC doesn't notice it(not possible to win anything, CFC doesn't care in that case)

In the case of Lily last year it was the organizers and not the CFC which ruled that she could not play up. The rules are slightly murky and subject to the agreement between the organizers and the CFC on some points. In general we don't want to encourage section shopping where players will move up in age groups in order to find weaker opposition than they might find in their own section. Where a player might want to move up to get stronger opposition, I believe that there is stronger sympathy though it does also have its own issues.

For NAYCC the attraction of the under 18 section was that it offered the possibility for IM norms and titles.

[George Zhou]

Re: Re : Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

When we decided to organize the tournament, we couldn't find any rules on playing up, so we decided to only allow it in some cases.

We sometimes had a lot of problems while allowing everyone to play up in tournaments. Often, a lot of people simply wait until the last minute to register in the weaker section... Obviously the goal of a CYCC is to determine who are the strongest players in each age category, not who was lucky to end up in a weaker section. Something similar happened to the 2013 NAYCC (although not for the same reasons) where the U18 was extremely strong, and the other sections extremely weak.

In any case, if a player won the OYCC by playing up and register in advance, I don't think there should be an issue in allowing him/her to play up in the CYCC.

In any case, if a player won the OYCC by playing up and register in advance, I don't think there should be an issue in allowing him/her to play up in the CYCC.
thanks Felix, this is big progress that there is something clearly tells what exception is allowed, which is to win OYCC in upper section. Hope it can be written in CFC handbook and abided by all organizers.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

The vote could be for 2015 onwards, but then again nobody shown interest for the 2015 CYCC and CO and giving more restrictions to organizers cannot help.

With respect to the 2015 CYCC we have several options so far all in Ontario. I agree that making it more difficult to organize these events is not a good idea.

[George Zhou]

Re: Open Section and Junior Girls

In the case of Lily last year it was the organizers and not the CFC which ruled that she could not play up. The rules are slightly murky and subject to the agreement between the organizers and the CFC on some points. In general we don't want to encourage section shopping where players will move up in age groups in order to find weaker opposition than they might find in their own section. Where a player might want to move up to get stronger opposition, I believe that there is stronger sympathy though it does also have its own issues.

For NAYCC the attraction of the under 18 section was that it offered the possibility for IM norms and titles.

thanks for clarifying Vlad. I understand now it was organizer's rule. it is reasonable for ogranizer not allowing section shopping for the concern of number of registrations.

but I do agree with Egidijus's "everything which is not forbidden is allowed", there should be somewhere in writing saying what is the exception to play up, such as to win provincial YCC, highest rated in upper section etc.

As long as there is something clear in writing, players and parents can follow and work hard to make it. I don't think it is good just saying upon organizer's approval. People don't know based on what the organizer to approve or disapprove.