Official protest to the CYCC organizers

[Rene Preotu]

I have sent an email to the CYCC organizers protesting about Sam Song playing in the U18 section.

On the preregistered list Sam Song is listed in the U16 Open
http://www.windsorchess.com/CYCC2015/list.php#u16o

With a CFC rating of 2211 he is 10th on the latest U16 list (which doesn't include 3 Quebec players rated above him).
http://chess.ca/players?player_search_age=16

For some reasons he was allowed to play up in the U18 http://www.chess-results.com/tnr180020.aspx?lan=1 instead of U16 http://www.chess-results.com/tnr178963.aspx?lan=1

The CFC rules regarding CYCC allow to play up in CYCC http://chess.ca/handbook#section-7 section 708
{Motion Bunning/Taylor in 2002-3 GL1 From AGM}:
The Executive may allow exceptional players to move up to a higher age group.

My questions are:
1. How is Sam Song an exceptional player if he is rated 13th in his age group?
2. Why was he preregistered in the U16 and then allowed to play in the U18 without any announcement? The U18 players found out about this after the 1st round pairings were posted.
3. Is CFC going to pay for his WYCC trip if he comes 1st or if he comes 2nd and the winner declines to go?

I think he realized he has better chances to qualifies to WYCC if he plays in the U18 (only IM Richard Wang is better rated than him) and switched from U16 to U18 in the last moment. Whoever allowed him to play up did a mistake and insulted all U16 players who are playing tough games to qualify to WYCC.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

Rene, I would recommend posting this on the CFC forum as well.
I know ChessTalk has much more traffic and this is more likely to be seen here,
but the CFC forum *should* have a copy of this post for archival purposes if nothing else...

I wonder when controversy about each CYCC WYCC etc will end? It seems every cycle brings
new issues. I look forward to whatever response your complaint will generate...

[John Coleman]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

I am not organising this year's CYCC, but because I have done it before (and never again!), they are consulting me now and then.

Some of the local decisions that were made, just off the top of my head, were when to cut off entries, whether to allow first round byes, whether MonRoi would be allowed, whether to allow late registrants. I suggested to Vlad Drkulec that the CFC should come up with a comprehensive set of guidelines, to avoid future organisers going thru the same decision-making process, but Vlad thinks that those tournament decisions are best left in the hands of each local local organiser.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

My questions are:
1. How is ........ an exceptional player if he is rated 13th in his age group?

An exceptional player and the rating are two different things. I think it's easier to obtain a higher rating when playing in the Toronto area than in the Maritimes.

It's a judgement call which doesn't appear, from the rules, to have to be justified.

[Rene Preotu]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

An exceptional player and the rating are two different things.

In your opinion how would you describe an "exceptional player" in chess?

It's a judgement call which doesn't appear, from the rules, to have to be justified.

In my opinion a bad judgment call.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

In your opinion how would you describe an "exceptional player" in chess?

I have no opinion on this. Only on how that rule can be interpreted.

[Vlad Dobrich]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

Rene,
The CFC should take your critique very seriously. You're the man 'on site' - the boots on the ground.
Your opinion is worth more than that of a dozen armchair critics.

[Rene Preotu]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

Rene,
The CFC should take your critique very seriously. You're the man 'on site' - the boots on the ground.
Your opinion is worth more than that of a dozen armchair critics.

I'm not on site. The arbiters on site are very competent (IA Aris Marghetis, Alexandre Ber, Andrew Peredun, Mikhail Egorov).
But this has nothing to do with the arbiters because it wasn't their decision.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

Hello Rene,

It is inappropriate to attack a player participating in a tournament over this situation. He did nothing wrong. Your comments are being perceived that way (as attacks) by the player and his parents. Three and a half years ago I and Aris disagreed with and voted against the decision to change the rules which allowed people to play up but the governors had a different view and the rules changed.

The CFC policy at least since 2012 has been to allow players to play up in older age groups. Aris's recollection and my more fuzzy memory is that there was a vote when Michael von Keitz was president which changed the section of the handbook which you referred to. A statement from Fred McKim on the CFC forum in March of 2012 leads me to believe this may have occurred in January 2012. I believe it was Bob Armstrong who proposed it. I do remember arguing against the change and I do recall losing the argument or at least the ensuing vote though it is possible that I am mistaken.

Patrick McDonald, then youth coordinator for the CFC articulated this policy as follows in February 2012.

http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/sh...6579#post16579

I am willing to state the rule that I will apply until over-ruled by some authority:

If someone wants to play in an age category older than the one they qualify for, they can do so.

BUT: if they win a spot in a certain age category to play at the WYCC, that is the age category that we are willing to send them to the WYCC in.

IE: if one player who is 9 years old, wishes to play in the U14 section at the CYCC, and if they win a spot to go to the WYCC, the only age category that Canada will send them to the WYCC in is the U14 section.

The same would go for girls that would like to play in the open section for their age group (or older) ... if a girl plays in the open section and wins a spot to go to the WYCC, then the only section that Canada will send them to the WYCC in is the section that they qualified in at the CYCC.

My many discussions with Frank Lee the current CFC youth coordinator including one on this same topic some months ago suggest to me that this policy did not change.



Vlad

[Fred Harvey]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

Some things never change! It's still all about the parents.....

It seems to me that the current rules allowing kids/parents to play up are sensible and fair. I'm not sure who everybody thinks is being unfairly treated by allowing this.....certainly not the kid in question who is diminishing their chances of "fame and fortune" by playing up, particularly at the wycc if they make it. And if people felt that the kids/parents in the higher group were being unfairly treated, they should encourage those kids to play better, and not get beaten up by a much younger player!

[Tony Li]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

Not to be too picky as there are many inconsistencies in life, but do we want the playing up rules for CYCC to be consistent with the Canadian Seniors?

I.e. if we allow playing up in the CYCC, should we allow those in the 65+ group to play in the 50+ group?

[Rene Preotu]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

Hello Rene,

It is inappropriate to attack a player participating in a tournament over this situation. He did nothing wrong. Your comments are being perceived that way (as attacks) by the player and his parents. Three and a half years ago I and Aris disagreed with and voted against the decision to change the rules which allowed people to play up but the governors had a different view and the rules changed.

The CFC policy at least since 2012 has been to allow players to play up in older age groups. Aris's recollection and my more fuzzy memory is that there was a vote when Michael von Keitz was president which changed the section of the handbook which you referred to. A statement from Fred McKim on the CFC forum in March of 2012 leads me to believe this may have occurred in January 2012. I believe it was Bob Armstrong who proposed it. I do remember arguing against the change and I do recall losing the argument or at least the ensuing vote though it is possible that I am mistaken.

Patrick McDonald, then youth coordinator for the CFC articulated this policy as follows in February 2012.

http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/sh...6579#post16579



My many discussions with Frank Lee the current CFC youth coordinator including one on this same topic some months ago suggest to me that this policy did not change.



Vlad

I sent you an email and I haven't got back a reply from you. In case you didn't get it see below:

Vlad,

I think you didn't understand my point. I'm not contesting the "playing up" motion. I read the postings from the CFC discussion group. Bob Amstrong's motion (in case there was such a motion) says about top juniors.

I am going to propose a motion that will give the top juniors the option to play up. I think it is a matter of freedom of choice for up and coming juniors.


Sam Song is 13th in the U16 CFC list (http://chess.ca/players?player_search_age=16 doesn't include 3 strong Quebec players). How can he be a top junior?

Another post by Michael Barron says "If you want to know my opinion, I agree with Valer:
players should be strongly encouraged to play within their age group at all times and at all levels including CYCC and CYCC qualifiers. If there are special circumstances when playing up is desired, those should be treated on a case by case basis."

What were the "special circumstances" in this case? Don't tell me it was the odd number of players in the U18. The U16 girls has 7 players too.

Why was he preregistered in the U16 and then switched to U18 without telling the U18 players. They found out about this just before the 1st round started.
http://www.windsorchess.com/CYCC2015/list.php#u16o

Please, don't insult my intelligence. I'm sure that he realized he has better chances to qualify to WYCC in the U18 where he has only 1 higher rated opponent to play against. It was a bad call to allow him this cheap trick. Now the next question is if CFC is going to pay for his WYCC trip if the 1st place declines to go?

Thank you,

Rene

[Rene Preotu]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

Hello Rene,

It is inappropriate to attack a player participating in a tournament over this situation. He did nothing wrong. Your comments are being perceived that way (as attacks) by the player and his parents.

I don't get it? Did the organizers went to his parents and asked them if they want to register him in the U18 or the other way?

[Paul Leblanc]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

I guess I would ask what event So played in to "qualify" for the CYCC. If he played in the U16 section of a tournament such as the OYCC then he did not qualify for the U18 section of the CYCC. If, instead, he qualified by rating then in my opinion he can play in any section where his rating fits. Of course there always seems to be a myriad of rule changes and unrecorded precedent setting decisions in youth chess so my simple logic may not apply.

[Rene Preotu]

Re: Official protest to the CYCC organizers

he can play in any section where his rating fits

Paul,

What do you mean by this?