"Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

[Duncan Smith]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

@Duncan, I didn't come up with a ridiculous premise, I posted a link to a situation where that may exactly have happened, sending 8 people to hospital on the TTC, hold the handrail - its the better way, 94% of escalator accidents are caused by misuse not mechanical malfunction

you for some reason veered off into a critique of my driving, although I don't remember ever driving anywhere with you?

Almost every aspect of life has some risk involved. Given the huge volumes of traffic on the TTC there will always be accidents. Holding the handrail is more of a "use as needed" rule requiring common sense. Legislating this is dumb.
Enforcing it in a heavy handed way is even worse.

Concerning the TTC, the fact the tracks have no barriers and some people stand right up at the edge is far more of a safety issue then escalators. By a mile, it's not even close. I can just imagine a society where several policeman stand at every station telling citizens they are within 3 feet of the edge move back or i'll arrest you.

And yet, if we are to follow the arguments some of you have wandered into on this topic, we most certainly would have to do that well before ever involving an escalator rail rule.

So you found an unfortunate isolated accident involving an escalator. Well, how many MORE stories have there been of people being pushed onto the tracks by strangers.

A little perspective might be in order. However, I do wonder if people paying municipal taxes in Montreal want to pay for these escalator patrols. Would it not be more practical and fair to allow citizen's to police their own behaviour in this regard. After all, almost no one deliberately puts their own welfare in danger which is required to create a sefety issue. And I am quite confidant Bela was creating NO safety issue.

Safety is a nice excuse however to support the heavy handed inappropriateness of the police in this case. And one might ask each and every person posting here if they have lived a life of no speeding, no jaywalking, and they hold the rail every time.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

Your taxes would have to pay for extra patrols that would be required to enforce the new rules that were an obvious complete overreaction to 1 ( or 2 ?) isolated incidents. Some accidents are merely that, you can't legislate out all risks in life.

Universal health care removes the chance of a devastating medical situation for everyone. Just because you didn't get hurt specifically doesn't negate the need to insure against the possibility.

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

The only escalator-related items in the Montreal transit bylaws are:

1) It is forbidden to force an escalator to stop (e.g. pressing the emergency stop button for no reason).
2) It is forbidden to sit or slide on the handrails.


http://www.stm.info

[Gary Ruben]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

The only escalator-related items in the Montreal transit bylaws are:

1) It is forbidden to force an escalator to stop (e.g. pressing the emergency stop button for no reason).
2) It is forbidden to sit or slide on the handrails.


http://www.stm.info

Section III.4.e doesn't apply or is my French rusty?

4. Dans ou sur un immeuble ou du matériel roulant, il est interdit à toute personne : ....

e) de désobéir à une directive ou un pictogramme, affiché par la Société;

http://www.stm.info/en-bref/R036.htm

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

@Duncan, patrolling the subway is a good thing, given the suicides, incidents of pushing people into the path of subway cars, gang shootings, muggings, theft and other mayhem that goes on regularly

you may not want the police to actually enforce safety rules but I think you may very well feel its safer for you & your's to be there when you see police patrols

police need to be where the people are & where the people are is in the subway, the streets and the malls

[Neil Sullivan]

Montreal Gazette: Today's Editorial

Here is an editorial on the matter. I am pasting it as the link will no longer be valid after today.

"Laval police are the ones who should get a grip


The GazetteMay 21, 2009

When a Laval police officer first suggested to Bela Kosoian - who was on an escalator headed down into Montmorency métro station - that she should hold onto the handrail for her own safety, it seemed to be done in a spirit of friendly concern.

Not that that's how she understood it. The words of advice came at her in French, not her first language or, it turns out, the police officer's. She was further handicapped, comprehension-wise, by having been absorbed in looking in her backpack for métro fare.

The police officer told Kosoian, 38, a second time to grab hold of the handrail. She refused, saying, "I don't have three hands."

The third time he issued his directive, she crossed her arms. That's when he went into full police mode: He demanded her identification, which she refused to provide on the grounds she had done nothing wrong, handcuffed her, and detained her in a small holding room at the station.

There, she was issued with a $100 ticket for failing to hold the handrail, along with a second $320 ticket for obstructing police.

This is ridiculous. In Montreal, no one is ticketed for failing to hold the handrail. In Laval, tickets are a rarity.

In both Laval and Montreal, passengers are allowed to bring bicycles, strollers, large parcels, grocery bags, in short, all manner of things that make it impossible to hold a handrail. Métro operators know this. Police officers who patrol the system should also know it.

Of course, it's safer for passengers to use a handrail, that's why reminders are posted. But Laval police say that Kosoian forced their hand.

"If we let people yell at us to go do our job elsewhere, what message does it send to other users? That the police will turn their backs," Lieutenant Daniel Guérin of the Laval police told the Globe and Mail.

He's right that police should be able to go about their work without confrontation and insults from the public. But what happened to Kosoian sends the message that the Laval police are incapable of defusing a situation they created themselves.

The officer could have let it go with his first suggestion. Or if he really felt Kosoian was acting in a way that endangered her safety - however unlikely - he could have issued a warning.

But instead, Laval police chose to be needlessly provocative. It's not too late. They could cancel the fines, say they over-reacted and let it go.

© Copyright (c) The Montreal Gazette"

[Duncan Smith]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

You sound paranoid crime rates aren't growing at all. Police aren't everywhere; I rarely see police in a mall, on the street it's usually handing out parking tickets, and rarely on the subway either.

Patrols late at night in troublesome areas I understand. Investigating reported crimes I understand. Arresting people for not holding handrails -- Monty Python would love it but it's an embarrassment to the police. Watch as they slowly backtrack on their position now under public scrutiny.

Canada doesn't need a police state. Let the fascist and communist regimes keep this quality as they are forced to control their populace to protect their power because they have no moral authority to keep it.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

Crime rates are not going up? Have you missed all the gang shootings in Toronto and Vancouver? The biker war in Quebec? I guess you have. With or without the crime rates going up crime is always going to be a problem in Canada.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

Crime rates are not going up? Have you missed all the gang shootings in Toronto and Vancouver? The biker war in Quebec? I guess you have. With or without the crime rates going up crime is always going to be a problem in Canada.

Here is a relevant link : http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...can-crime.html. I just Googled it I'm sure there are better sources I just don't have to time to do the work for you.

People tend to overreact to what they read and not look at actual ongoing trends and statistics. For example, it is a myth that Toronto has a high crime rate or a high murder rate. Statistically it ranks favourably against most urban centers in Canada. Yet some people will argue the opposite and not do the research. Similarily, crime rates on average tend to be higher in rural settings, something that would surprise most people.

Vancouver has some new issues with drug related crimes for sure. Quebec has much more organized crime issues then the rest of Canada. The key would be are the trends positive or negative, not getting all emotional and overreacting to every news story you see.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

Crime rate up, crime rate down is not relevant, there is always a certain amount of crime out there- enough to justify police patrolling in public areas, which you decried on the basis of cost. Crime stats only cover reported crimes as well.

I'm happy to see the police in such places. You however being a hulking fellow with quick reflexes and strong muscles honed from that great sport of curling probably figure you can take out any toughs yourself.

[Duncan Smith]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

Crime rate seemed relevant to you until the point that it was shown crime rates are declining.

My opinion is any out of shape chess player should certainly investigate curling as an excellent way to introduce much needed cardiovascular exercise to their life. The medical community would agree 100% with me on this.

ps Keep hugging the handrail for all it's worth ( :) ).

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

Don't forget to hold the handrail on your way out then :D:D:D:p

Crime rates declining is a lovely thing and show the value of what the police are doing. I'm glad that they will keep it up and deal with public safety as well.

Very clever editing of your post above to remove your previous comments & copy cat my handrail remark.

[Ben Daswani]

Re: Bela Kosoian & Her Troubles

Let's review. A Police Officer (no doubt politely) asks a Citizen to perform a simple action to obey a law. The C refuses. The PO asks again and gets a "smart" response.

What gives the PO(S) the right to tell someone what to do?

Tangent: Personally, I've never agreed to follow any Canadian laws. Why should I be expected to?

[Jason Lohner]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

Here is a relevant link : http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...can-crime.html. I just Googled it I'm sure there are better sources I just don't have to time to do the work for you.

People tend to overreact to what they read and not look at actual ongoing trends and statistics. For example, it is a myth that Toronto has a high crime rate or a high murder rate. Statistically it ranks favourably against most urban centers in Canada. Yet some people will argue the opposite and not do the research. Similarily, crime rates on average tend to be higher in rural settings, something that would surprise most people.

Vancouver has some new issues with drug related crimes for sure. Quebec has much more organized crime issues then the rest of Canada. The key would be are the trends positive or negative, not getting all emotional and overreacting to every news story you see.

Crime rates are getting lower because people don't bother reporting property crime anymore because they know that the police do nothing about it.
I once reported something stolen from my car and the cop got mad at me for reporting it!

[Anthony Cheron]

Re: "Our" Bela Kosoian in the news, unfortunately

Arresting people for not holding handrails -- Monty Python would love it but it's an embarrassment to the police. Watch as they slowly backtrack on their position now under public scrutiny.

This is not an embarrassment at all for police. It's a duty. The police confronted a 'tough customer' in Bela Kosoian's case.

Walking quickly down a series of steps ( steps are not always made to exact specification in their widths, you might be surprised by taking a tape measure) , looking for change in one's purse at the same time while descending quickly --- why tempt fate?

More interesting is Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair's idea of introducing video surveillance cameras in Toronto's west end in the near future. The city, pressed for money, may not have this happen for a while, but it will eventually happen.

Before we all start shouting 'police state' , I would like chesstalk readers to consider the shooting of a 5 year old girl on Thursday in Toronto's west end. She was hit by a stray bullet. Also, consider the facts and figures at the bottom of this page.

Link: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/638579

When criminals see their faces clearly on camera after their senseless crimes they often give themselves up for lighter sentences. Proven fact.

Question: why should innocent children suffer gunshot wounds if we as a society are afraid to photograph the culprits on public sidewalks?

GET THOSE CAMERAS UP AND OPERATING!