Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

January 7, 2017

Just five weeks after the end of the W.C.C. Match, a book of the games has appeared.

The details:

World Chess Championship 2016
Sergey Karjakin vs. Magnus Carlsen
by Jerzy Konikowski, Uwe Bekemann

Publisher: Beyer-Verlag, 2016
Edition: Paperback medium
ISBN: 9783959209694
Pages: 141
Language: English

In 2013 Magnus Carlsen became world champion after his victory over Viswanathan Anand. He has been dominating the top of the international chess scene ever since – and almost at his liking. Now, defending his title against the not much older Russian Sergey Karjakin was on the agenda. All their prior match-ups were ‘teeth and claws’ affairs with the Norwegian only scoring a slight plus.

However, Sergey Karjakin surely did his best to push his opponent off the throne. From November 11th to 30th the Fulton Market Building in New York became the arena of the fight for the crown of the world chess champion. Exciting games, played at the highest level and thoroughly annotated, will guarantee the reader’s delight.

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

December 5, 2016

From Tarjel J. Svensen this morning:

This is a big surprise. Carlsen names GMShanky among his helpers during the Match, in addition to MVL, Fressinet and Grandelius.
________

Sam Shankland was 4th board on the 2016 USA Olympiad team and is rated 69th in the world, just behind teammate Ray Robson. Interesting that Carlsen welcomed his input in his preparation.

He is on the cover of the first issue of the new American Chess Magazine

I was glad to see Sam’s tweet on the 30th:

Sergey has more than earned the respect of the chess world. He fought a battle that he can be very, very proud of.

Sam won the Edmonton International this past June:

https://www.chess.com/news/edmonton-...land-wins-9323

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

3) I don't know when he saw the mating line, but even if he only saw it just prior to actually playing Rc8+ it is still fine for him

I was looking for any mentioning how early Magnus had seen the move or a possible variation. Only got a reminder about Qh6 in the old WC match Kasparov-Karpov.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess...1067294&m=34.5

Maybe some new interviews will discuss the last moments of the match.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

I have never played a GM who in the post-mortem talked about +3 or +6 or whatever positions. Mostly if they find something really strong they play it. I would think in a relatively fast game the tendency to play the first strong move you see is even more pronounced. I know it's true for me in my games.

Agreed. The proliferation of computer assisted analysis is really distorting our view here. No one uses such numerical evaluations.

OTB, you don't have access to a computer and the human brain is not a computer. For us, some +3 variations are just easier to see and calculate, even though there's also another move in the position leading to a +6 evaluation.

In that final game, the variation after Bf8 is in fact very easy for a human GM: it's all checks for which black can answer with only one or two moves, all leading to a rapid checkmate. I was exagerating a bit when I said you don't need to calculate it. But the fact is, the calculation is really too simple and straightforward.

IMO, seeing Qh6 in advance is harder, even though the variations are much shorter.

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

December 3, 2016

For the record, the seconds of each player have been revealed:

Sergey’s known team of seconds are all those who have helped him before: Vladimir Potkin, Alexander Motylev, Shakhriyar Mamedyarov and Kasparov’s old coach Yury Dokhoian.

https://chess24.com/en/read/news/kar...ds-after-match

(To Magnus) - Now that the match is over, would it be OK to share who your seconds were?

I think some of them have been shared. Peter [Heine Nielsen] of course, [Laurent] Fressinet, and also Nils Grandelius was in the team. I think the others either don't want to be named, or they want to make the announcement themselves. [According to NRK, Maxime Vachier-Lagrave has also helped Carlsen. — PD]

https://www.chess.com/news/view/magn...confident-7465

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

December 3, 2016

Yasser Seirawan has a thoughtful follow-up to his article in ChessBase about improving the format of the world championship match.

It contains two paragraphs of especial interest:

Once again I stress that I’m a critic of the current system. I don’t like it at all. In fact, I find the current cycle to be plainly stupid. Why? Please, take the following grandmasterly challenge, I double-dare you: explain the current system to a good friend who doesn’t play chess. Explain that the Champion, presumably the best chess player in the world, sits outside of a two-year-long cycle of events, biding his time, waiting for a Challenger to emerge. That there is a series of four “Swiss Open” tournaments with hundreds of players, called “Continental Championships”, played at a different time-control, that act as qualifier events for a big-money event called the “World Cup.” That it, in turn, is a 128-player “Knock-out” event featuring different time-controls, as well as tie-breakers that qualify the winners for a “Candidates’ Tournament” which is a “double-round-robin” with a different, slower Classical time-control. The Candidates’ Tournament itself features a field of eight players. Where the runner-up of the previous WC Match is joined by the World Cup qualifiers, some of the highest rated players in the world and a wildcard player chosen by the organizers. Be sure to emphasize such terms as “Swiss Open”, “Knockout Matches”, “Double-Round-Robin”, as well as describing the different time-controls, and toss in an “Armageddon” once or twice to be sure that your friend is listening. Don’t forget that tiebreaks are not used in the Candidates’ tournament. Instead, do mention, please, that tying for first by losing more games than your rival is better than going undefeated, and I guarantee you that you will have thoroughly confused your friend. And quite possibly yourself as well.
________

For myself, I’d consider it a massive improvement if the next World Championship Match were a 15-game contest with the player who is given the extra game with the Black pieces at the drawing of lots ceremony having draw-odds. At every moment in such a match a player would be trailing and would have to fight for the win. Tame draws would favor only the player in the lead. Victory would come only in Classical Games and not through Rapid Chess, Blitz or an Armageddon game. Lest anyone think that I would deny the chess world the thrills of Rapid Chess, I would not. That is why there is a World Rapid Chess Championship which is called by that name. It is coming up soon. Be sure to tune in to that different form of chess. But let us keep the three forms of chess, Classical, Rapid and Blitz, separate from one another.

http://en.chessbase.com/post/yasser-...redux-wcc-2016

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Ok, last night I did realize that and that's why I wasn't talking in terms of Magnus losing the game.

In my post today, I forgot about that and got thinking the stakes were far greater. My mistake under goading by a troll. I'm sure the troll will be happy, but my original thoughts were correct, so just a minor misstep on my part. I'll just remember not to respond to his goading any further.

So my original question remains and is still fascinating. Did Magnus, with his 47th move of Qxf4, make a psychological decision to goad Karjakin into the mating line that got played? And as I stated last night, if so it would be the best psychological move (that I know about) since the Anand-Topolav match.

The troll says the choice of 47.Qxf4 was a matter of taste, even though objectively it was almost 4 points worse than 47.Rxc8. Would you agree with that, Tom? Do you think Magnus may have just made a snafu (not as serious as an outright blunder) and then had to adjust and didn't see the mating line until move 49?

If he saw it all at move 47, that would make it impressive, and all the more so given the line John Coleman gave, which beginning at move 49 is mate in 8:
49.Rc8+ Bf8 50.Rxf8+ Kxf8 51.Rxf7+ Ke8 52.Rf8+ Kd7 53.Qf7+ Kc6 54.Rc8+ Kb5 55.Qc4+ Ka5 56.Ra8#

1) I don't think he saw the mating line when he played Qxf4 though I wouldn't say the chances are 0%.

2) I agree with Matthieu. I think it is a matter of taste. Remember, Carlsen only needed to draw the game so for him anything that safely maintains his advantage is fine. I have never played a GM who in the post-mortem talked about +3 or +6 or whatever positions. Mostly if they find something really strong they play it. I would think in a relatively fast game the tendency to play the first strong move you see is even more pronounced. I know it's true for me in my games.

3) I don't know when he saw the mating line, but even if he only saw it just prior to actually playing Rc8+ it is still fine for him. On the Chess24 broadcast when Qh6+ was pointed out to Svidler, he thought that Magnus would just play something safe like Qg3 with big advantage for White with - very importantly! - very little risk.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

That mate is very easy to calculate. You don't even bother calculating it until the end. It's just obvious that black is geting mated there.

Except that by abandoning your own first rank, any miscalculation where Black has an extra escape square you forgot about means you fall short and suddenly have to defend a few mate-in-1's against you. I think that was John Coleman's point. Doh!

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Harder to calculate is the forced mate after 49. Rc8+ Bf8 50.RxB KxR 51.Rxf7+ etc

That mate is very easy to calculate. You don't even bother calculating it until the end. It's just obvious that black is geting mated there.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Ha ha! What a howler! The very person who posted this:

"Qh6 by Carlsen might seem simple from the comfort of our seats, with the engine running and all.

But we have to appreciate that it had to be planned well in advance. Because it is, literally, the only winning move. Without it, white is losing."

is now saying

"+3 or +6 doesn't really matter in that position. Both moves are clearly winning and it's just a matter of taste."

And in your quote, you conveniently left out the fact that we're talking about different moves...

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

What makes you think 49.Rc8+ is forced or that 47.Qxf4 would be otherwise losing? In the game White could have played pretty much any move that guards the g2-square on move 49 and still be fine. True 50.Qh6+ was forced but he obviously saw that at the very least when he played 49.Rc8+

Ok, last night I did realize that and that's why I wasn't talking in terms of Magnus losing the game.

In my post today, I forgot about that and got thinking the stakes were far greater. My mistake under goading by a troll. I'm sure the troll will be happy, but my original thoughts were correct, so just a minor misstep on my part. I'll just remember not to respond to his goading any further.

So my original question remains and is still fascinating. Did Magnus, with his 47th move of Qxf4, make a psychological decision to goad Karjakin into the mating line that got played? And as I stated last night, if so it would be the best psychological move (that I know about) since the Anand-Topolav match.

The troll says the choice of 47.Qxf4 was a matter of taste, even though objectively it was almost 4 points worse than 47.Rxc8. Would you agree with that, Tom? Do you think Magnus may have just made a snafu (not as serious as an outright blunder) and then had to adjust and didn't see the mating line until move 49?

If he saw it all at move 47, that would make it impressive, and all the more so given the line John Coleman gave, which beginning at move 49 is mate in 8:
49.Rc8+ Bf8 50.Rxf8+ Kxf8 51.Rxf7+ Ke8 52.Rf8+ Kd7 53.Qf7+ Kc6 54.Rc8+ Kb5 55.Qc4+ Ka5 56.Ra8#

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

December 2, 2016

The so-called Sesse Supercomputer analyzes all of Carlsen’s games as they are being played. At the moment it has the position after 49…Kh7 and the analysis of every possible move after that

http://analysis.sesse.net
_________

Evidently Steinar H. Gunderson has the alias Sesse. He is a Norwegian computer scientist and software engineer, who worked in Switzerland for Google, Inc.

It is perhaps a good idea to bookmark the site and refer to it when Carlsen is playing a match!

[John Coleman]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

If not for 50.Qxh6+, then 47.Qxf4 would be the LOSING move (because 47....Ra2+ FORCES 48.Kh1 and 48..... Qf2 forces desparado moves from White, starting with 49.Rc8+ .... a move that is useless if not for the follow-up 50.Qh6+).
With all the people analyzing this game online, didn't anyone bring this question up? It's YUGE!

Harder to calculate is the forced mate after 49. Rc8+ Bf8 50.RxB KxR 51.Rxf7+ etc

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

If not for 50.Qxh6+, then 47.Qxf4 would be the LOSING move (because 47....Ra2+ FORCES 48.Kh1 and 48..... Qf2 forces desparado moves from White, starting with 49.Rc8+ .... a move that is useless if not for the follow-up 50.Qh6+).

What makes you think 49.Rc8+ is forced or that 47.Qxf4 would be otherwise losing? In the game White could have played pretty much any move that guards the g2-square on move 49 and still be fine. True 50.Qh6+ was forced but he obviously saw that at the very least when he played 49.Rc8+

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

+3 or +6 doesn't really matter in that position. Both moves are clearly winning and it's just a matter of taste. No need to overanalyze this.

Ha ha! What a howler! The very person who posted this:

"Qh6 by Carlsen might seem simple from the comfort of our seats, with the engine running and all.

But we have to appreciate that it had to be planned well in advance. Because it is, literally, the only winning move. Without it, white is losing."

is now saying

"+3 or +6 doesn't really matter in that position. Both moves are clearly winning and it's just a matter of taste."

That person is now in disagreement with.... HIMSELF!

Mathieu.....YOU WROTE that it had to be well planned in advance. YOU WROTE that without 50.Qxh6+ Carlsen is lost. And you were CORRECT on the second point, not necessarily on the first. And it's not "overanalyzing" when a move is made that can only be justified as a +3 move IN THE CONTEXT of finding the saving move 50.Qxh6+. If Magnus didn't see that mating line, or if it turned out not to work because of some tiny overlooked detail, Carlsen blunders away winning the WC and they have to go to blitz games. And we'd all be asking what kind of breakdown Magnus had!

Overanalyze THAT!

Meanwhile, ignoring the troll, I have to wonder if anyone else out there appreciates what happened and wonder if Carlsen actually SAW the saving move when he played 47.Qxf4 instead of the much stronger (technically speaking) 47.Rc8+.

If not for 50.Qxh6+, then 47.Qxf4 would be the LOSING move (because 47....Ra2+ FORCES 48.Kh1 and 48..... Qf2 forces desparado moves from White, starting with 49.Rc8+ .... a move that is useless if not for the follow-up 50.Qh6+).

Now the troll is calling that overanalyzing! It's the difference between winning and losing if the saving desparado line wasn't there! And seeing the saving mate was extremely difficult at move 47 (for a human player, not for Stockfish).

As Kerry pointed out, even seeing it at move 50 is difficult, helped if you know that there IS a saving mate there for White. Also helped by realizing Black has half a dozen immediate mates for which no defensive move helps, including 50.Qg3.

The question remains, did Magnus see that saving mate when he made his move 47? Or was his move 47 actually a blunder that was only saved by a miracle mate that Magnus didn't even see until he HAD to see it to save his game?

With all the people analyzing this game online, didn't anyone bring this question up? It's YUGE!

I wonder if at this stage Carlsen would even admit to his move 47 being a "saved blunder" if that's what it was..... only he knows for sure.