Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

November 30, 2016

Tiebreaks

World Chess Championship
New York City
Tiebreaks
Rapid Game 2, Nov. 30, 2016
Carlsen, Magnus – Karjakin, Sergey
C50 Giuoco Piano

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.O-O Nf6 5.d3 O-O 6.a4 a6 7.c3 d6 8.Re1 Ba7 9.h3 Ne7 10.d4 Ng6 11.Nbd2 c6 12.Bf1 a5 13.dxe5 dxe5 14.Qc2 Be6 15.Nc4 Qc7 16.b4 axb4 17.cxb4 b5 18.Ne3 bxa4 19.Rxa4 Bxe3 20.Bxe3 Rxa4 21.Qxa4 Nxe4 22.Rc1 Bd5 23.b5 cxb5 24.Qxe4 Qxc1 25.Qxd5 Qc7 26.Qxb5 Rb8 27.Qd5 Rd8 28.Qb3 Rb8 29.Qa2 h6 30.Qd5 Qe7 31.Qe4 Qf6 32.g3 Rc8 33.Bd3 Qc6 34.Qf5 Re8 35.Be4 Qe6 36.Qh5 Ne7 37.Qxe5 Qxe5 38.Nxe5 Ng6 39.Bxg6 Rxe5 40.Bd3 f6 41.Kg2 Kh8 42.Kf3 Rd5 43.Bg6 Ra5 44.Ke4 Rb5 45.h4 Re5+ 46.Kd4 Ra5 47.Kc4 Re5 48.Bd4 Ra5 49.Bc5 Kg8 50.Kd5 Rb5 51.Kd6 Ra5 52.Be3 Re5 53.Bf4 Ra5 54.Bd3 Ra7 55.Ke6 Rb7 56.Kf5 Rd7 57.Bc2 Rb7 58.Kg6 Rb2 59.Bf5 Rxf2 60.Be6+ Kh8 61.Bd6 Re2 62.Bg4 Re8 63.Bf5 Kg8 64.Bc2 Re3 65.Bb1 Kh8 66.Kf7 Rb3 67.Be4 Re3 68.Bf5 Rc3 69.g4 Rc6 70.Bf8 Rc7+ 71.Kg6 Kg8 72.Bb4 Rb7 73.Bd6 Kh8 74.Bf8 Kg8 75.Ba3 Kh8 76.Be6 Rb6 77.Kf7 Rb7+ 78.Be7 h5 79.gxh5 f5 80.Bxf5 Rxe7+ 81.Kxe7 Kg8 82.Bd3 Kh8 83.Kf8 g5 84.hxg6 1/2-1/2

Comments Online

(Nigel Short) - Give us a ridiculous, unsound, perplexing, bewildering Tal-sacrifice please

(Anish Giri) - Happy Birthday Magnus.Today is the day to do big things!

- Karjakin looking troubled

- This game is very interesting and complicated. But SK will have problem to properly cope with it, because he has just 4 minutes now.

- Karjakin have to go for King's gambit now next game.

- Karjakin down to 2 mins againast about 13mins... Congrats Magnus

- engines spend most of their cpu time chatting to other engines over the web - mainly complaining about how boring chess is

- Well with the time situation and the position on the board Magnus is coming to squeeze this one out

- two bishops for magnus vs rook for sergey

- very tricky endgame

- not impossible, but very hard to win

- at move 62 the supercomputer says that it is mate for white in 31

- can't believe Magnus had a +2 position with 10 mins advantage and botched it... he is really not at his best

- Magnus missed three mates

Draw agreed. A stellar defence by Sergey Karjakin. The score is 1-1 and the third game is in the offing.

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

November 30, 2016

Tiebreaks

All sorts of difficulty getting on the chess24.com site for the first game. Also ChessTalk down supposedly due to unpaid bills. Something always seems to happen for the first game.

World Chess Championship
New York City
Tiebreaks
Rapid Game 1, Nov. 30, 2016
Karjakin, Sergey – Carlsen, Magnus
C84 Ruy Lopez, Closed

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.d3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.a3 O-O 9.Nc3 Nb8 10.Ne2 c5 11.Ng3 Nc6 12.c3 Rb8 13.h3 a5 14.a4 b4 15.Re1 Be6 16.Bc4 h6 17.Be3 Qc8 18.Qe2 Rd8 19.Bxe6 fxe6 20.d4 bxc3 21.bxc3 cxd4 22.cxd4 exd4 23.Nxd4 Nxd4 24.Bxd4 Rb4 25.Rec1 Qd7 26.Bc3 Rxa4 27.Bxa5 Rxa1 28.Rxa1 Ra8 29.Bc3 Rxa1+ 30.Bxa1 Qc6 31.Kh2 Kf7 32.Bb2 Qc5 33.f4 Bd8 34.e5 dxe5 35.Bxe5 Bb6 36.Qd1 Qd5 37.Qxd5 1/2-1/2

First game is drawn and there will be three more rapid. If the match is tied then, there will be five double round blitz to follow unless someone wins in the meantime.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

You sound like you're losing your train of thought even as you write your own stuff. First, the challenger is playing black in game 12 and he certainly doesn't have the advantage in that 13th game.

Dude! Stub out that reefer! Make yourself a coffee if you're going to stay up this late!

I wrote: "Let the 12th game be the one that decides, and defending champion gets Black in that game."

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

For clarity, here's what I wrote: "You wouldn't actually need the 13th game. Let the 12th game be the one that decides, and defending champion gets Black in that game." Do any of you see "new format" in that statement?

Now, let's compare the two scenarios:

(1) 12 game format, draw odds to champion. Score after 11 games is 5.5 to 5.5. Challenger is White in game 12.

Challenger must win game 12 to become WC. Anything else and champion retains title.

(2) 13 game format if match is tied 6-6 after 12 games. Score after 11 games is 5.5 to 5.5. Challenger is White in game 12.

Challenger can draw game 12 to delay match outcome until game 13, in which challenger will again be White and will again need to win to become WC.

Actually, adding the possibility of the 13th game is advantage to the challenger. S/he can play for a win in game 12 and always revert to a draw and still remain alive for the 13th game. The champion now has 2 games in which to lose the title rather than just the 1. Drawing the first of those 2 games wouldn't win the title for the champion as it would in the 12-game draw odds scenario. Advantage challenger.

You sound like you're losing your train of thought even as you write your own stuff. First, the challenger is playing black in game 12 and he certainly doesn't have the advantage in that 13th game.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Oh, my, the depths to which you will dig to try and prove yourself worthwhile!

I did not say anything about a "new format". Sure, it's draw odds. Never disputed that. Awwwwww. Don't look so forlorn! There's always tomorrow, next week, next month, next year. Poor little loser.

For clarity, here's what I wrote: "You wouldn't actually need the 13th game. Let the 12th game be the one that decides, and defending champion gets Black in that game." Do any of you see "new format" in that statement?

Now, let's compare the two scenarios:

(1) 12 game format, draw odds to champion. Score after 11 games is 5.5 to 5.5. Challenger is White in game 12.

Challenger must win game 12 to become WC. Anything else and champion retains title.

(2) 13 game format if match is tied 6-6 after 12 games. Score after 11 games is 5.5 to 5.5. Challenger is White in game 12.

Challenger can draw game 12 to delay match outcome until game 13, in which challenger will again be White and will again need to win to become WC.

Actually, adding the possibility of the 13th game is advantage to the challenger. S/he can play for a win in game 12 and always revert to a draw and still remain alive for the 13th game. The champion now has 2 games in which to lose the title rather than just the 1. Drawing the first of those 2 games wouldn't win the title for the champion as it would in the 12-game draw odds scenario. Advantage challenger.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Sorry Paul, but your post doesn't address the quote you took from my post in any way or form.

And you conveniently left out the part where I point out that your elucubrations about a revolutionary 12 games match format just end up exactly like giving draw odds to the champion. So... I take it that we agree your new format is just useless verbiage for 'draw odds'.

Oh, my, the depths to which you will dig to try and prove yourself worthwhile!

I did not say anything about a "new format". Sure, it's draw odds. Never disputed that. Awwwwww. Don't look so forlorn! There's always tomorrow, next week, next month, next year. Poor little loser.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Actually you can't draw a conclusion about that. No studies have been done. [...]

Sorry Paul, but your post doesn't address the quote you took from my post in any way or form.

And you conveniently left out the part where I point out that your elucubrations about a revolutionary 12 games match format just end up exactly like giving draw odds to the champion. So... I take it that we agree your new format is just useless verbiage for 'draw odds'.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Big difference here is that the challenger gets to play 7 games with white, while the champion only had 6. That doesn't negate the draw odds advantage completely, but that certainly minimizes it in an elegant way.

Actually you can't draw a conclusion about that. No studies have been done.

Here's what you'd have to do: have many, many games -- let's say 1000 as a minimum -- between players of roughly equal strength, maybe within 50 ELO points, with both players being over let's say 2600 or 2700. The lower rated player is considered the challenger and gets White. The conditions of the match are this: this single game is considered a match, which must have a winner. The winner of the match gets a substantially bigger prize than the loser, and in fact, the loser barely gets enough to make the match worth his or her while. This is to emulate the benefits of BECOMING (but not already being) WC. Both players need to be very VERY highly motivated to win the match, to the point where drawing the game (losing the match) is like.... well, pick your poison.

So let's say loser gets $200, winner gets $5,000. White must win the game to win the match, otherwise Black wins the match.

You might find under those conditions that White may win the majority of matches, maybe even a substantial majority. Or not. We don't know, because of the sheer rarity where those conditions have existed for a single game between elite players (or any players, for that matter). In fact, I doubt those conditions have ever existed. Game 12 of this WC match didn't have those conditions: Karjakin could draw and still have a roughly equal chance to win the match.

Actually, this would be a very interesting direction for someone with lots of sponsorship connections (Jean Hebert? :D) to take to grow interest in chess. Bring together various big-name players, very close in rating, and maybe even where the challenger is known to play for blood on the board and the "champion" (higher rated player, who will be Black) is known for playing very solidly. Put this single game on TV or internet, with even bigger prize money at stake (but not too much bigger for the match loser).

Hmmmmm.... I seem to remember the organizer of Linares back in the early 1990's used to offer incentives for players to play for a win, with either White or Black. How much was that incentive, and did it have any effect? Still not the same as what I'm proposing here, but maybe the closest thing.

I think what I'm proposing here would have YUGE upside potential for generating worldwide interest, and even for generating a profit if live coverage of the match were charged for as with Agon in this match.

Who would everyone like to see matched up in such an all-or-nothing game?

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Right, so there wouldn't be a Game 12 if the score was 6.0-5.0 for the defending champion after 11 games.

And with that information in hand, I can safely confirm that your brand new system is exactly the same as giving draw odds to the champion. ;)

Congratulation, sir! Yet again, you managed to take something pretty simple and straightforward and you formulated it in an unecessary convoluted way. You really have a talent for that, by the way.

But let's say they did have Game 12 with that score... so the challenger wins and sends the match to Game 13 because it's 6-6.

Then they draw Game 13 and they give the title to the defending champion? That will do wonders for chess becoming a sport.

Big difference here is that the challenger gets to play 7 games with white, while the champion only had 6. That doesn't negate the draw odds advantage completely, but that certainly minimizes it in an elegant way.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Everyone is overlooking the best tiebreaking alternative: POKER DICE!!! Best two out of three rolls takes the title. : /

Oh, even better, best 7 out of 13! And because of the mental exhaustion, spread the rolling of the dice over 2 days, with a rest day in between.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Also, what happens if the challenger wins? Score is 6-6 and you can't give the challenger the title on that?

Right, so there wouldn't be a Game 12 if the score was 6.0-5.0 for the defending champion after 11 games.

But let's say they did have Game 12 with that score... so the challenger wins and sends the match to Game 13 because it's 6-6.

Then they draw Game 13 and they give the title to the defending champion? That will do wonders for chess becoming a sport.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Everyone is overlooking the best tiebreaking alternative: POKER DICE!!! Best two out of three rolls takes the title. : /

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

If the score going in to game 12 was 5.0 to 6.0 for defending champion, again, he just has to draw with Black and wins (but this time in the total score also).

Also, what happens if the challenger wins? Score is 6-6 and you can't give the challenger the title on that?

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

You wouldn't actually need the 13th game. Let the 12th game be the one that decides, and defending champion gets Black in that game.

Well, the idea would be to counterbalance the champion's advantage of draw odds (as in the old system), by having him play an extra game with black. Hence game 13. So the champion still starts the match with a small advantage, but not as much as draw odds. And the challenger will have all the much needed motivation to play for a win at some point.

As it is, with these 12 games matches and rapid tiebreaks, you sometime feel like both players are just happy with draws. Which shouldn't be the case. Seirawan's proposal takes care of that, without giving too much of an advantage to the defending champion.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Seirawan's proposition is indeed radical. Play 12 games and if the score is 6-6, play one additional game and the player with black has draw odds. Flip a coin before the match to determine the colors in that extra game.

Obvious advantage: classical chess champion is determined by classical chess games. The guy with white in the extra game knows he's better play for a win, because having black in the extra game is quite an advantage.

What I profoundly dislike: challenger gets the extra black, he draws 13 games and becomes world champion. Try to explain that to the media.

IMO, this proposition makes sense only if the defending champion has the extra black. As he is 'defending' the title, I like the image of him having to hold the fort with black in an ultimate game.

It's better than draw odds, no phony rapid or blitz games. I could live with that (with my extra proposition)

You wouldn't actually need the 13th game. Let the 12th game be the one that decides, and defending champion gets Black in that game.

So if the score going in to game 12 was 5.5 to 5.5, Black (defending champion) just has to draw and the championship is his although the score is tied 6-6.

If the score going in to game 12 was 5.0 to 6.0 for defending champion, again, he just has to draw with Black and wins (but this time in the total score also).

And if the score going in to game 12 was 6.0 to 5.0 for challenger, a draw wins the challenger the championship by total score.

If the spread in the score was anything greater than 1.0 points (i.e. 6.5 to 4.5), there wouldn't be a game 12.


For a moment I was wondering: as an alternative to all that.... why not allow co-champions?

But it wouldn't avoid the problem. Because if a given year has co-champions, then the next cycle must produce 2 challengers, one to play each co-champion. Winners of those matches meet for WC. But the two semifinal matches each MUST produce a single winner. So those 2 matches must have a way to break ties.