Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Seirawan's proposition is indeed radical. Play 12 games and if the score is 6-6, play one additional game and the player with black has draw odds. Flip a coin before the match to determine the colors in that extra game.

Obvious advantage: classical chess champion is determined by classical chess games. The guy with white in the extra game knows he's better play for a win, because having black in the extra game is quite an advantage.

What I profoundly dislike: challenger gets the extra black, he draws 13 games and becomes world champion. Try to explain that to the media.

IMO, this proposition makes sense only if the defending champion has the extra black. As he is 'defending' the title, I like the image of him having to hold the fort with black in an ultimate game.

It's better than draw odds, no phony rapid or blitz games. I could live with that (with my extra proposition)

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

November 29, 2016

Another suggestion that MAGNUS himself brought up in an interview I saw last year (I am sorry I do not remember the circumstances surrounding it) is to have a Yearly or Bi-Yearly double round robin tournament with the top 10 players. Winner is world champion.

From August 2015 - Magnus Carlsen proposes changes in World Chess Championship cycle

http://forum.chesstalk.com/showthrea...ses-changes-in

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Thanks for the input guys. Kerry Liles brought up that 24 games may be too long. The Kasparov-Kramnik match in 2000 featured a 16 game match with draw odds to the champion. Would this be a more reasonable match length?

Another suggestion that MAGNUS himself brought up in an interview I saw last year (I am sorry I do not remember the circumstances surrounding it) is to have a Yearly or Bi-Yearly double round robin tournament with the top 10 players. Winner is world champion.

There is an article in Chessbase today by Yasser Seirawan ( http://en.chessbase.com/post/seirawa...c2016-new-york ) where he too complains about the situation. He was looking at a compromise of 18 games if I recall. In any case, the fundamental dispute is about how to deal with the situation of a tied match or tied result in a round-robin tournament. The length of the match or the number of top players in the RR and similar questions are (to me) less important than what to do about a tie.

[Taylor Waite]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Thanks for the input guys. Kerry Liles brought up that 24 games may be too long. The Kasparov-Kramnik match in 2000 featured a 16 game match with draw odds to the champion. Would this be a more reasonable match length?

Another suggestion that MAGNUS himself brought up in an interview I saw last year (I am sorry I do not remember the circumstances surrounding it) is to have a Yearly or Bi-Yearly double round robin tournament with the top 10 players. Winner is world champion.

[Ken MacDonald]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

I would agree with a return to the 24 game format with draw odds to the champion. But as I recall, this ended when FIDE in its wisdom (???) refused to give those odds to Fischer. That, plus other demands refused, gave Bobby the excuse to cut and run rather than face Karpov.

I think it was removed before that, maybe even as far back as the Petrosian-Botvinnik match. I also recall that Fischer wanted the challenger being required to win by two games or something like that?? Our experts will tell us!

[Gordon Ritchie]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

I would agree with a return to the 24 game format with draw odds to the champion. But as I recall, this ended when FIDE in its wisdom (???) refused to give those odds to Fischer. That, plus other demands refused, gave Bobby the excuse to cut and run rather than face Karpov.

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

November 29, 2016

Game Twelve
World Championship
New York City
Game 12, Nov. 28, 2016
Carlsen, Magnus – Karjakin, Sergey
C67 Ruy Lopez, Berlin Defence, Open Variation

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O Nxe4 5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Be7 7.Bf1 Nxe5 8.Rxe5 O-O 9.d4 Bf6 10.Re1 Re8 11.Bf4 Rxe1 12.Qxe1 Ne8 13.c3 d5 14.Bd3 g6 15.Na3 c6 16.Nc2 Ng7 17.Qd2 Bf5 18.Bxf5 Nxf5 19.Ne3 Nxe3 20.Qxe3 Qe7 21.Qxe7 Bxe7 22.Re1 Bf8 23.Kf1 f6 24.g4 Kf7 25.h3 Re8 26.Rxe8 Kxe8 27.Ke2 Kd7 28.Kd3 Ke6 29.a4 a6 30.f3 Be7 1/2-1/2

Carlsen opened with 1 e4 and after Karjakin replied 1… e5, Carlsen steered for the same line of the Berlin Defense that had brought him so close to success in Game 3. But this time, Karjakin played more cautiously and easily neutralized Carlsen’s minute advantage as most of the pieces were rapidly traded off.

Some spectators, who thought that Carlsen might try to be a bit more ambitious in his final regulation game with White, were disappointed by the somewhat insipid play.

In the press conference afterward, Carlsen apologized to fans and said that he felt no need to risk being too aggressive. For his part, Karjakin said that he was of course satisfied to draw so easily with Black. He also said that there was some potential venom in the line that Carlsen had played, but that he had prepared for it.

Ilya Merenzon, the chief executive of Agon, the organizer of the championship, announced that, in light of the quick draw, all tickets for Game 12 would be honored for the tie-breakers on Wednesday.

The tie-breaker will commence with a series of four rapid games, played at the rate of 25 minutes per player per game, with 10 seconds added after each move. If the players are still tied after the rapid games, they will then play two blitz games. If those blitz games do not produce a winner, they will play another set of two and continue that way up to a total of five sets of blitz games. If there is still no winner, Carlsen and Karjakin will play an Armageddon game in which White has five minutes and Black has four, but Black only has to draw to win the match.

Comments Online

- The match is to determine World Champion of chess, not World Champion of classical chess. In that sense having tiebreaks containing rapid and then blitz make sense in both commercial and chess point of view.

- Right! If you want to have a World Championship of Classical Chess, make them play until someone proves he's much better than the other guy, or until one of two players with equal skills drops dead from exhaustion and finally loses the match, like the old days.

Whoever wins THIS match is the World Chess Champion. Thank you

- I've been saying for long time that there are people working hard to kill classical chess. Yesterday maybe Carlsen gave the last shot. Ethically, for me, Magnus, no matter what happens in tie-breaks, will not be World Champion anymore.

On the other hand, the tie-breaks, as it is raised, do not make sense. As it has been said in this forum, the logical thing is that the first tie had to do with the victory with black pieces, in this way Karjakin would be deserved World Champion.

- Chess history has several matches with a high share of drawn games. I've already mentioned Capablanca-Alekhine and Karpov-Kasparov (K-K had 8 decisive games out of 48, which is exactly the same ratio as 2/12 as seen in Anand-Gelfand and Carlsen-Karjakin).

1910 Lasker-Schlechter had 2 wins out of 10 games. 1021 Lasker-Capablanca had 1 win out of the first 9 games. Capablanca only started winning games after Lasker became physically exhausted due to age and climate.

I agree with you that the draw rate has been high in this match as well as Anand-Gelfand. And I further agree with you that this has more to do with the players' styles and not the match format. This is exactly why I don't advocate anything as drastic as rating wins with the black pieces higher, or changing the format back to "first player to wins six games is champion".

I'd like somewhat longer matches than only 12 games. But I think depending on the players' style; we will have matches with more decisive games in the future, anyway, regardless of the specific rules.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

I like the old system... 24 game match, If the match ended in a 12–12 tie, the defending champion would retain the title.. I think this is the best system they have had so far.

I would agree. Giving a [slight] edge to the champion by requiring the challenger to not tie but actually defeat him/her in a proper match is fine.
The number of games in the match could be argued forever, but 24 seems long enough; 12 is certainly too low.

Artificial attempts to define a tie break are just ridiculous in my view. May as well just use rock, paper, scissors... as use some other form of 'chess'.

[Taylor Waite]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

I like the old system... 24 game match, If the match ended in a 12–12 tie, the defending champion would retain the title.. I think this is the best system they have had so far.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

OK, it all makes sense now.

Carlsen's strategy all along was/is to win the championship on his birthday as a gift to himself!

[Erik Malmsten]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Well, if you insist on having more mistakes, just shorten the time control... That will take care of everything.

Have the world championship be decided by 1h+30 sec. per move games. You could probably squeeze 3 games a day and have the whole thing done in 12 days, including rest days.

Day 1: games 1-3
Day 2: games 4-6
Day 3: rest day
and so on...

And imagine how exciting it would be! With 3 games a day, one player would have the advantage on odd days, and the other on even days.

Or you could have them play with the same colors for the whole day! So much excitement!!

OK 24 games at regular time control:
first 8 - 1 round a day.
rest day
second 8 - 2 rounds a day (4 days).
rest day.
third 8 - 3 rounds a day (2 days) and after last game continue playing 24 hours a day until someone wins.
17 days maximum. Ha Ha.

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Gordon wrote:

Armageddon (5 min White, 4 Black with draw odds)

In addition - after 60 moves in the Armageddon game, there will be 3-second increments.

https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/r...match_2016.pdf

[Gordon Ritchie]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

The players agreed to a draw at the earliest possible point, move 30. On to tiebreaks beginning Wednesday at 2 p.m. EST. A match of four rapid games (25+10) followed, if needed, by five two-game blitz matches (5+3) and then, if all else has failed, the Championship of the World will be decided by an Armageddon (5 min White, 4 Black with draw odds). Should be exciting but purists will not be happy to have it end this way.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Bloomberg has an interesting piece on the WC match:

The Strange Politics of the World Chess Championship

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

I think it is a disgrace that the World Championship may be decided by Rapid or Blitz or (even worse) an Armageddon game... Nonsense.
More B.S. from IllusionOf and FIDE.

Problem is, you can't play classical chess as a tiebreak. It could keep going forever and would be a logistics nightmare for everyone, including the players. So you need a solution.

Rapid I don't mind much. Some great games were played in rapid tiebreaks.

Blitz I agree is nonsense. At this pace it's a different game. And armageddon... I mean, it's different set of rules.