Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

[John Coleman]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Draw. Very disappointing, I guess both players are prepared to fight it out in the playoffs. I wonder what the paying customers think.

[Kerry Liles]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

I've heard they play 4 rapid games and then up to 10 blitz games at 5+3s before going to armaggedon.

At least there's a very high probability of avoiding the world championship being decided on a drawn game.

Still think Carlsen will push a bit today. But probably not enough.

I think it is a disgrace that the World Championship may be decided by Rapid or Blitz or (even worse) an Armageddon game... Nonsense.
More B.S. from IllusionOf and FIDE.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

I've heard they play 4 rapid games and then up to 10 blitz games at 5+3s before going to armaggedon.

At least there's a very high probability of avoiding the world championship being decided on a drawn game.

Still think Carlsen will push a bit today. But probably not enough.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Come on, now. At least my proposition is more realistic than having two 6 hours games... in one day.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Well, if you insist on having more mistakes, just shorten the time control... That will take care of everything.

Have the world championship be decided by 1h+30 sec. per move games. You could probably squeeze 3 games a day and have the whole thing done in 12 days, including rest days.

Day 1: games 1-3
Day 2: games 4-6
Day 3: rest day
and so on...

And imagine how exciting it would be! With 3 games a day, one player would have the advantage on odd days, and the other on even days.

Or you could have them play with the same colors for the whole day! So much excitement!!

All you are doing is proving what an a-hole troll you are. You bitch about boring games, and when someone proposes something, you have nothing but criticism for that. No solutions coming from your little peabrain. I think another poster suggested you take up tiddlywinks, but you'll do nothing but criticize that game as well. You're like a yappy little dog and I for one am kicking you to the curb.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Well, if you insist on having more mistakes, just shorten the time control... That will take care of everything.

Have the world championship be decided by 1h+30 sec. per move games. You could probably squeeze 3 games a day and have the whole thing done in 12 days, including rest days.

Day 1: games 1-3
Day 2: games 4-6
Day 3: rest day
and so on...

And imagine how exciting it would be! With 3 games a day, one player would have the advantage on odd days, and the other on even days.

Or you could have them play with the same colors for the whole day! So much excitement!!

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

I agree with you that the current format is sub-optimal. But playing 2 games a day is just too much. These guys do spend more energy on one game than you ever do for a whole tournament.

I'm going to ignore Vlad Dobrich's comment -- not anything against you, Vlad (if you're reading this), but just that we're not deciding anything here. This is just exploring pros and cons of various ways to keep the WC from being decided by rapid / blitz games.

Mathieu, I have seen how much energy players of various strengths put into weekend Swiss tournaments where they are playing 2 games a day for 3 straight days. Why is it not "too much" for them? Sure, the WC is not at stake, but it's not like anyone is collapsing in exhaustion either.

Personally, I think these elite players are babied too much. With all the time they have, they are doing such intensive pre-game computer analysis that it is getting harder and harder for either player to truly get an edge. Even Kramnik famously complained about this a few years ago. And Mathieu, you yourself complained how boring the match has been.

Imo, the whole thing needs to return to being an over-the-board battle as it was before computer engines came along. What needs to be remembered is that this isn't the World Chess Championship, it is the World Human Chess Championship. If you made the WC players play 2 games per day, with a rest day in between, they would adjust their energy levels accordingly, just as a long distance runner adjust his or her energy output based on the length of the race.

Would there be more mistakes? Perhaps.... but that's what makes human chess more interesting than computer chess. And I would add that mistakes made during slow play are more indicative of human chess ability than mistakes made during a blitz melee.

[Vlad Dobrich]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Oh great! Lets have every patzer on the planet vote to decide how the best two should compete for the World Championship title.
What might make sense is to have the top 10 or 20 rated players sit down and work out the format.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Fine, then give them a rest day every second day so that it's 24 games in 24 days. The important part is the return to 24 games and doing 2 games per day, for the benefits I outlined.

I agree with you that the current format is sub-optimal. But playing 2 games a day is just too much. These guys do spend more energy on one game than you ever do for a whole tournament.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Still the dumbest thing I've read today. But there's plenty of time left. I'll update you guys this evening.

Fine, then give them a rest day every second day so that it's 24 games in 24 days. The important part is the return to 24 games and doing 2 games per day, for the benefits I outlined.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

24 games in 18 days? Dumbest thing I've read so far today. But hey, the day is still young!

Still the dumbest thing I've read today. But there's plenty of time left. I'll update you guys this evening.

[Mathieu Cloutier]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

24 games in 18 days? Dumbest thing I've read so far today. But hey, the day is still young!

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Online Comments

- There are three categories of play: Classic, Rapid, and Blitz. I think it is misleading to have the World Champion of the Classic category decided by Rapid and Blitz games. I would prefer that they continue to play an additional two games until a winner emerges.

- Really dumb of Agon to have so many rest days at the weekends.

- Nothing is broken here. Sure, we have 1-1 with 9 draws, but the games have all been very interesting. I just wish we had 24-game matches. Then the players would be able to take more risks. As it stands, a 12-game match leaves absolutely no room for error. One loss puts you in very bad shape.

Just putting this out for commentary: It seems a lot of followers of WC chess would like to see 24 game matches again. Instead of that, things have moved towards shorter matches of slow games and then rapid and blitz to decide an equal result after the slow games.

But what about a return to 24-game matches where 2 games are played per day? With the idea being that for each day, both players have to prepare for being both White and Black. If the schedule was two consecutive days of 2 matches per day, followed by a rest day, the 24-game match would be complete within 18 days.

Another possible benefit of this: there would be more over-the-board calculation and less influence of pre-game computer preparation. But at the same time, it reduces the chance of the match going to rapid and blitz, which to my mind is more of a drastic step than the 2 matches per day. As was pointed out, if this match goes to rapid / blitz, then just in the past 10 years no less than THREE WC matches will have been decided by rapid / blitz stage. Soon we will have to call it the World Rapid / Blitz Championship?

Some might say 2 matches per day would be extremely exhausting. Maybe the time control or increment would have to be reduced slightly to make it less strenuous, but I still think the key is to reduce the influence of pre-game preparation. Have them work things out over the board RATHER THAN at a computer screen.... but not in seconds as often happens with rapid / blitz. The ultimate benefit could be less draws but without time-pressure mistakes. And physical conditioning would also become a bigger component of the match.

[Wayne Komer]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

November 26, 2016

Game Eleven

World Championship
New York City
Game 11, Nov. 26, 2016
Karjakin, Sergey – Carlsen, Magnus
C84 Ruy Lopez, Closed (7…d6)

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.d3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.a3 O-O 9.Nc3 Be6 10.Nd5 Nd4 11.Nxd4 exd4 12.Nxf6+ Bxf6 13.Bxe6 fxe6 14.f4 c5 15.Qg4 Qd7 16.f5 Rae8 17.Bd2 c4 18.h3 c3 19.bxc3 d5 20.Bg5 Bxg5 21.Qxg5 dxe4 22.fxe6 Rxf1+ 23.Rxf1 Qxe6 24.cxd4 e3 25.Re1 h6 26.Qh5 e2 27.Qf3 a5 28.c3 Qa2 29.Qc6 Re6 30.Qc8+ Kh7 31.c4 Qd2 32.Qxe6 Qxe1+ 33.Kh2 Qf2 34.Qe4+ 1/2-1/2

(Peter Doggers at chess.com) - Magnus Carlsen played a wonderful idea today, but it wasn't enough to create winning chances. With one game to go in the 2016 World Championship, to be played on Monday, his match with GM Sergey Karjakin is tied 5.5-5.5.

Only twice before has a world championship been decided in a playoff (Kramnik-Topalov, 2006 and Anand-Gelfand, 2012), but we could well be seeing the same scenario this year in New York. After Carlsen's wonderful 19... d5, both a good move and a psychological punch, Karjakin took a deep thought, kept his cool, and then the game quickly petered out to a draw.

After another rest day, the world champion will have the white pieces in game 12. If things are not decided on Monday, we'll see a playoff on Wednesday (again starting at 2 p. m. New York time) consisting of four rapid games, and if necessary, blitz to follow.

The game itself saw another 6. d3 Ruy Lopez, the same choice by Karjakin as in the second game of the match. But again it was Carlsen who was the first to deviate: He played 9... Be6 instead of 9... Na5.

Once again Carlsen did not give his opponent the chance to improve upon earlier play.

White lost his advantage with the slow push 12. h3, which commentator Judit Polgar didn't like—one of the reasons being that the typical maneuver Rf1-f3-h3 was no longer an option for White. "It was probably a very bad move," Karjakin would later admit.

As if he wanted to "refute" this little pawn move, Carlsen came up with the amazing 18... c3 19. bxc3 d5!?, a concept praised by experts in New York and on Twitter.

Maybe objectively speaking Carlsen's idea wasn't even better than taking back on c3 immediately, but it was definitely the more challenging option. Karjakin had to calculate a lot of moves (and a lot of branches of variations connected to them), such as 20. c4, 20. fxe6 and 20. Bg5.

Suddenly, there was a lot of room for White to make a mistake.

After 27 minutes, Karjakin chose to trade the bishops, and practically speaking, that was an excellent decision. As Peter Svidler put it, "Once the position threatened to get slightly out of control, [Karjakin] went for the most solid option."

So, did he see 19... d5 coming or not? "I have seen basically all these ideas for Black but I didn't understand that they are so good," said Karjakin at the press conference. "I thought that it's maybe equal. I agree that it was a bit careless from my side."

(Robert Hess at chess.com)

18... c3 And Carlsen presses forward. White's queenside is getting shattered as Black starts to take the initiative. 19. bxc3 d5! Most players would have immediately recaptured the pawn, but Carlsen wants more from the position. With this move, he forces Karjakin into a deep think. This is definitely not what Karjakin, perhaps still reeling from his Thanksgiving loss, wanted out of the opening with the white pieces. Magnus has received all the dynamic opportunities the position offers, whereas Karjakin is stuck playing defence.

(19... dxc3 20. Be3 allows the bishop a new diagonal, which makes his next few decisions easier than the game continuation. Black has the advantage on the queenside; in the long run, the three on two from the a- through c-files will prove bothersome. If all major pieces are exchanged, progress with a5-b4 will be hard to meet. Note that in many endgames, Black can actually jettison his b-pawn, for when White captures the a-pawn roams free. The center is less of an issue in the endgame, when the king is happier to meet a convoy of pawns in the middle of the board than on the flanks.)

Online Comments

- There are three categories of play: Classic, Rapid, and Blitz. I think it is misleading to have the World Champion of the Classic category decided by Rapid and Blitz games. I would prefer that they continue to play an additional two games until a winner emerges.

- Really dumb of Agon to have so many rest days at the weekends.

- Nothing is broken here. Sure, we have 1-1 with 9 draws, but the games have all been very interesting. I just wish we had 24-game matches. Then the players would be able to take more risks. As it stands, a 12-game match leaves absolutely no room for error. One loss puts you in very bad shape.

- To me this was the first game in the whole match, where Carlsen played a whole game in normal, strong Carlsen mood: cool, calm and collected, going for a slightly worse structure not fearing a strong white kingside, and asking "show me what you can do?" In some other games, he had opening successes with black resulting in fast and easy draws, but I saw no game played throughout with todays level of skill and self-confidence. He missed nothing essential at all, and was even able to take over the initiative with black. He probably is just in time to be back to normal - and in THIS form he can become a real threat.

The answers of both concerning the relation of chess skill and psychology were also interesting. Both of their answers made sense in a way. But it seems Magnus has freed himself from any "world champion (self-)expectations" finally, and is just back to good moves instead of complicated feelings (the Fischer perspective), while Sergey pointed out that psychology of course plays a big role in the finish. That's perfectly true: but including the option not to feel too much of it, by being your own, feeling ok with yourself and able to focus.

Once more Karjakin played excellent pragmatic chess, and he will be a hard nut to crack no matter what! He really deserves respect for what he is doing at the chessboard. But he also showed some of the 'leaning towards prophylaxis and security' again, and of hesitating and shying away from complicated, unbalanced positions, whenever in doubt (h3 to secure his queen just in case, Bg5 to secure the draw etc.). In games against a Magnus in normal form, in a black classical game first and then in fast chess (rapid and blitz), this attitude might be felt as increasing weight on Karjakin's shoulders from my view, even with his high level of skill.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: Games of the Carlsen-Karjakin W.C.C. Match

Not as short a draw as seen on the EOCA circuit ... when beer 'n' wings are calling.

I very much liked 19...d5

Wouldn't it'd be awesome to Carlsen revisit the Tromp in game 12!?!