Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Brad and Bob, it seems to me that if there are women and girls who wish to play in female-only chess events, then that is sufficient reason for such events to be held. Why does there exist this peculiar segment of sexist males who for some strange reason feel compelled to attack female-only events on the basis that, "Oh, we only want them to play better chess" or "Oh, THEY are being sexist because men and boys can't play in their female-only events." Leave the women and girls alone and let them decide how they wish to enjoy the game.

So I take it that if someone were to run male-only events you would make the same argument?

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Thanks for correcting me, Halldor. And thank you for your efforts in making this tournament happen.

[Brad Thomson]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Gentlemen, you leave me no choice but to rob Peter to pay Paul. Please forgive me for being so careless with my poorly worded explanations of my own positions. Allow me to attempt to be precise.

I do not believe it is right to tell someone who wants to play in a chess tournament that they cannot do so because of their gender.

I see nothing wrong with telling someone who wants to play in a chess tournament that they cannot do so because of their age.

Both discriminate, yes. Both are discriminatory, yes. But one is sexist and the other is not. Therefore, please explain to me why you bring up the analogy? It is no argument, just an equivocation.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

You're right on all counts. Happy New Year ! :)

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Canada sends a team to the Olympiads which is female-specific, so no that is not it.

Yes, of course it would be sexist if it were run by women.

How is senior or junior chess sexist?

Peter McKillop, I think you can give up trying to have a rational discussion with Brad. Notice how he answered your 2nd question. You asked about discrimination in general, and he comes back with a question about sexism. He's not going to discuss rationally with you.

Senior and junior chess could be considered age discrimination. According to Brad's logic, both Canadian seniors and Canadian juniors should feel INSULTED that Canadian organizers put forth events that are only for them. However, none of that is happening.

Yet according to Brad, "dozens" of Canadian women have in the past felt insulted that Canadian organizers would hold events only for them. We don't have names and we don't have women backing up this claim, we have only Brad saying it.

We also have Brad saying that if everything were reversed and organizers had to hold men-only events in a female-dominated chess world, men would NOT feel insulted and in fact would clamor for more such events.

What I believe we have here is someone trying to create a tempest in a teapot. An instigator, basically.

I think we can for now safely ignore this whole charade.

Oh, Canada sends a team to the Olympiads which is female-specific. So does the rest of the chess world. If that is so damn insulting to female chess players worldwide, WHERE ARE THEY PROTESTING? WHY DO THEY NEED BRAD THOMSON TO SPEAK UP FOR THEM ON AN OUTLIER CANADIAN CHESS FORUM?

[Brad Thomson]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

So that's it?...

Paul Bonham asked you a question that I don't think you answered: would you still think a women's championship was sexist if it was organized and run by women? (this from memory; sorry, Paul, if I didn't get it right)

Also, I asked you a question that I don't think you answered: if you're opposed to women's championships because you think they're discriminatory, are you also opposed to senior and junior championships? If you're not opposed to junior/senior championships, then how do you rationalize this seeming inconsistency in your thinking?

Canada sends a team to the Olympiads which is female-specific, so no that is not it.

Yes, of course it would be sexist if it were run by women.

How is senior or junior chess sexist?

[Neil Frarey]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

So that's it? The CFC's "female-specific program" (quoting you from an earlier post in this thread) consists of a national women's championship tournament which is held only sporadically and which hasn't been held since 2011? Doesn't sound like the CFC is putting a lot of effort into this female-specific program.

So why did CFC put effort into that (national women's championship) female-specific program?

And why was it cancelled?

[Halldor P. Palsson]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

The ad included:

2016 Canadian Women’s Chess Championship & Zonal [FIDE Zone 2.2]
Date: September 22-26, 2016
Place: RA Centre, 2451 Riverside Drive, Ottawa, Ontario
Rounds: 9, round 1, Thursday at 7:30 PM, rounds 2-9, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday at 10 AM & 5 PM. Type: Regular Swiss
Prizes are guaranteed to total $2,000:

Open - (rated FIDE & CFC); 1st $1,000 plus a trip to the FIDE World Event which the CFC funds according to its rules; 2nd $500, 3d $250; 4th and/or U-rating prizes totalling $250.
Time Control: 90/40-plus 30 min/game and 30-seconds per move from move 1.
Organizer: Halldor P. Palsson
TD: FA Danny Goldenberg, FA Donald Miller and Halldor P. Palsson.

#	Player	Old	Perf	New	High	         Results	Total
1	Zhou, Qiyu         	2325	2331	2346	2346	X111=11	5.5
2	Matras-Clement, Agn.	2308	2201	2305	2327	0X=1111	4.5
3	Wang, Constance	2033	2113	2054	2145	0=X==11	3.5
4	Khoudgarian, Natalia	2263	2075	2248	2306	00=X111	3.5
5	Demchenko, Svitlana	2011	2050	2021	2090	=0=0X11	3.0
6	Tan, Kylie	                1671	1773	1664	1733	00000X=	0.5
7	Pretell Diaz, Carol	1700	1769	1689	1754	00000=X	0.5

WGM Qiyu Zhou of Ottawa will be in Tehran at the Women’s World Championship in 2017.

I personally prepared to put time and money into women's chess. I was fortunate to be supported locally by EOCA, RA Chess Club, Gordon Ritchie and FA Goldenberg. IA Hal Bond and the CFC were also very helpful in getting the event to Ottawa.

The way this event has been organized in the past and then not for four years does not inspire confidence and support. Nobody can blame women in Canada for not leaving room for this event on their chess schedules. However, perhaps the next event will be better supported.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Lots would mean dozens, including many of Canada's top female players at the time. In those days the CFC was running Women's Championships where men were excluded. If this is not happening today it is a result of a lack of volunteers and/or money, it is not because we have deemed excluding males as sexist.

So that's it? The CFC's "female-specific program" (quoting you from an earlier post in this thread) consists of a national women's championship tournament which is held only sporadically and which hasn't been held since 2011? Doesn't sound like the CFC is putting a lot of effort into this female-specific program. And you say that "... the CFC was running Women's Championships where men were excluded"?? This sounds unusually logical for the CFC. I wonder what they were really up to?

Paul Bonham asked you a question that I don't think you answered: would you still think a women's championship was sexist if it was organized and run by women? (this from memory; sorry, Paul, if I didn't get it right)

Also, I asked you a question that I don't think you answered: if you're opposed to women's championships because you think they're discriminatory, are you also opposed to senior and junior championships? If you're not opposed to junior/senior championships, then how do you rationalize this seeming inconsistency in your thinking?

[Brad Thomson]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Lots would mean dozens, including many of Canada's top female players at the time. In those days the CFC was running Women's Championships where men were excluded. If this is not happening today it is a result of a lack of volunteers and/or money, it is not because we have deemed excluding males as sexist.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Paul, I worked at the CFC for five years, I talked to a lot of women players who wanted no part in female-only events because they considered them insulting. There were lots of organizers who refused to run women's only events. The Governors discussed this issue and voted as to whether or not to continue with a female-specific program. A number of very active people voted to abolish the female-specific program. The general argument was to the effect that yes, this is a sexist program, but as long as FIDE does it we should continue to do so as well. And so here we are.

What astonishes me is that so few of you who want to encourage female-specific events have the guts to say that women do not play chess as well as men, which could be the only possible justification for wanting female-specific events in the first place. If the shoe were on the other foot you would all be clamoring for events where females were excluded! But you would not be sexist.

I'm trying to understand your post. Could you help me with the following questions?:

1. How do you define "lots"?

2. The CFC has a female-specific program?? I'm most impressed!! What does this program consist of?

If you wouldn't mind answering those questions I'd appreciate it.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Paul, I worked at the CFC for five years, I talked to a lot of women players who wanted no part in female-only events because they considered them insulting.

Why would you wait until now to mention that? Why didn't you begin your whole argument with that? It makes your whole claim about women players wanting no part of women-only events seem very dubious. In any event, those women seemingly haven't spoken up for themselves. Why do you have to be their spokesperson?

What astonishes me is that so few of you who want to encourage female-specific events have the guts to say that women do not play chess as well as men, which could be the only possible justification for wanting female-specific events in the first place.

I actually did say, right in this thread, that women don't play as well as men. BUT..... I also said it isn't anything biological, it is simply a numbers game. Up until recently, young girls simply didn't put the hours and hours of work into chess in anywhere near the numbers that that young boys did. So the young boys progressed and the young girls didn't, with rare exceptions. But nowadays we have youth events every week and females are as much a part of it as males, so things will likely change in years to come.... assuming some high percentage of the females return to chess after their university years, which I think very unlikely.

If the shoe were on the other foot you would all be clamoring for events where females were excluded! But you would not be sexist.

Wait...what? Are you saying that women in the current situation feel insulted by being offered women-only events.... but if men were the vast minority in chess and were weaker players than women, the men would NOT be insulted to be offered men-only events? They would be clamoring for more of them? It seems you are saying that women have self-respect and men do not.

[Brad Thomson]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Paul, I worked at the CFC for five years, I talked to a lot of women players who wanted no part in female-only events because they considered them insulting. There were lots of organizers who refused to run women's only events. The Governors discussed this issue and voted as to whether or not to continue with a female-specific program. A number of very active people voted to abolish the female-specific program. The general argument was to the effect that yes, this is a sexist program, but as long as FIDE does it we should continue to do so as well. And so here we are.

What astonishes me is that so few of you who want to encourage female-specific events have the guts to say that women do not play chess as well as men, which could be the only possible justification for wanting female-specific events in the first place. If the shoe were on the other foot you would all be clamoring for events where females were excluded! But you would not be sexist.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Perhaps a pseudo-Freudian/Hegelian explanation.

Historically, men certainly have been and perhaps still are afraid to lose chess games to women. So they have contrived a way to buy the women off by offering them their own trinkets. Some women accept trinkets and some do not.

Either way, we are now in the 21st Century. Let's get over it and simply have males and females play chess together.

A lot more females would play.

Here's a reverse-psychology pseudo-quasi-Freudian/Dr. Seussian explanation:

Historically, men certainly have been and perhaps still are afraid to confront why women prefer women-only chess events. In fact, these men are JEALOUS that women get to play women-only events and can much more easily win major prizes (because the women don't have nearly as much opposition as men do in open events.)

So these jealous men contrive arguments that women should feel insulted that they are even offered the chance to play in women-only events. Or they contrive arguments that women would "progress in their personal chess better" if they played in open events instead of women-only events. As if "progressing in their personal chess" is all that female chessplayers care about, because after all, it's all that MALE chessplayers care about.

To the great consternation of these jealous men, the women do not bother to respond to them. Instead, the women just continue to play in women-only events, which only exacerbates the jealousy of these specific tiny minority of men who had jealousy to begin with.

And so these 2.... oh, did I say 2? Yes I did.... jealous men push even stronger in their arguments that chess organizers should not even let the women play in women-only events, even though women are decidedly happy with such events. "No, it can't be!" the jealous men think, "They are so insulted! They are so not-progressing-in-their-personal-chess!"

Some of these jealous men (....actually, 1 of them) further argue that women's-only events have ruined chess, that open chess events would be far more "fun" with large numbers of women participating.... instead of the poor women being isolated, miserable and fun-less and not progressing, in their insulting women's-only events.

Some of these jealous men (.... actually, 1 of them) further argues something about women's titles. I'm guessing these are supposed to be another insult to women, but maybe I have that wrong... maybe the men's titles are insulting to women? It gets really confusing.

Maybe the truth is that these jealous men..... so unnaturally obsessed with competitive chess and unblessed in their own competitive abilities at chess.... are secretly wishing they were women...

And then we have another man who bemoans only 6% of CFC membership is women, while about 50% of non-rated chess cafe participation (in Toronto) are women, and this man says this contradiction befuddles him.

"Oh, no.... it couldn't be! No, not that! Please, women of Toronto.... don't tell us that the majority of you women who like chess... don't want to play rated competitive CFC chess!

What? You just want to play chess in a pub with a few drinks and lots of noise and music and..... and.... have FUN?! But.... But.... if you only played in our open rated CFC events, it WOULD be fun! It would be so much FUN, especially if two of you women got paired AGAINST EACH OTHER!

You'd get to.... you'd get to.... pay memberships! Punch a clock! Not say a word to anyone! Have your cell phone taken away! Be timed whenever you go to the bathroom! Be strip-searched if you perform way above your rating!

Look, women, here's a picture of our god Bobby Fischer! Ok, so he was hardline anti-Jew who thought the U.S. government was after him... just because he wouldn't pay taxes.... but look, he's so handsome! He played chess for a living and he was so handsome! Now we have Magnus Carlsen, and he's the next Handsome One! And he's not weird... he's just Norwegian!"

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Women’s World Championship 2017, Tehran

Think of how much fun it would be when two women happened to get paired!! I could go on and on. Imagine if one of the women beat Magnus!! Think of the fun it would be when a woman WON an event!!!!! AND DO NOT TELL ME THEY CANNOT. SO WHY DO THEY NEED THEIR OWN EVENTS????

Female exclusive events have ruined chess. They have ruined this great tournament we have the pleasure of watching at this time.

All of this fun is lost by the 19th century attitude of segregation in chess.

Right Paul? :)

Don't drag me into your silly arguments. I've already made my view clear, I agree with Peter McKillop that we should leave both women AND organizers to do what they think best.

For decades organizers have run tournaments which allow women to participate with men, and there were no women-only events running parallel to keep the women out of the open events. Did it work in terms of attracting women to play? Obviously not. Organizers are now trying a different strategy of having separate and parallel women's events, and the women are turning out in fairly good number, all things considered. It's all good as far as I can tell.

...(I'd reiterate Peter McKillop's point that perhaps women just want to play chess without a bunch of assholes around, but then...(sigh)... Brad would demand an apology for calling him an asshole, when neither Peter nor I ever called him an asshole, we are simply saying that maybe women chess players view male chess players as assholes in a general sense... and supposedly my even mentioning this point would demonstrate "my profound insecurity" by another of Brad's "pseudo-Freudian/Hegelian explanations" .... so I put it here in brackets in the hope that Brad won't notice it... but if he does, his own profound insecurity is bound to have him thinking he's being called an asshole)...

Brad, you are guilty of the very sin you are railing against. You are PRESUMING that the women see these women-only events as an insult to them, as if male organizers are implying that women are second-rate players who need special nurturing. BUT YOU HAVEN'T ACTUALLY TALKED TO THE WOMEN!

If you want your point to be taken seriously, back it up with support from women players, preferably a majority of them. Or if not actual women players, how about women who WOULD be players if not for this so-called male organizer put-down attitude? Perhaps you can find some of them? Get them to sign a petition for organizers to stop holding parallel women-only events, and every woman who signs it should be sure to enter an open event if there is no parallel women-only event.

Good luck with all that.

In the meantime, Brad, I have to ask: what is this "fun" you are talking about?

"Think of how much fun it would be when two women happened to get paired!!" Wow, two exclams. Please, can you explain this new concept of "fun"? Again, you are guilty of the sins you rail against. You are saying that women are so different in chess that to have two of them paired against each other is somehow "fun"... with TWO EXCLAMS!!

Personally, I can't fathom what would be so special about it. The time controls would still be the same. The moves would still be legal chess moves. The result would still be one of 1-0, 1/2-1/2, or 0-1. There would still be tactics and strategy, the same kind of tactics and strategy you'd see in a game between two male players.

What is so effing special, Brad? What is this "fun" that doesn't exist in a game between two male players?

"Imagine if one of the women beat Magnus!!" Two more exclams!! Anyone beating Magnus is special, but you are saying it would be way more special if it was a woman!!

How much "fun" it would then be if an albino eskimo midget were to beat Magnus!!! See Brad I even put THREE EXCLAMS for that!!!

Somehow, Brad, I think that YOU are the only one here guilty of putting women into some special category of player. For you and you alone, only women players can really add "fun" to chess, whatever that means.

"Female exclusive events have ruined chess." Ohhhhh... no exclams. :( So sad, so terribly sad.

This reminds me of the Monty Python "Nudge nudge, wink wink" skit. The guy who keeps saying "nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean, eh?" is making all sorts of presumptions and then at the very end asks..... "So what's it like?" revealing his absolute ignorance.

Talk to women, Brad. I know it's scary, but you have to do it if you want anyone to take your points seriously.