A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

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  • Paul Bonham
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Originally posted by Peter McKillop View Post
    How would a metaphysicist account for the consequences of stepping off a curb directly into the path of an oncoming car?

    I think in this current political cycle, the response might be: "Fake news!"

    Where the question gets very interesting is when the car in question is a Ford Escape......

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  • John Coleman
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Originally posted by Brad Thomson View Post
    All of this physics is quite interesting, but since my training is in metaphysics I must conclude that material substance does not exist and that all reality is mind.
    Or, as we used to say in the philosophy department 50 years ago, "no matter, never mind".

    Leave a comment:


  • Peter McKillop
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Originally posted by Brad Thomson View Post
    All of this physics is quite interesting, but since my training is in metaphysics I must conclude that material substance does not exist and that all reality is mind.
    How would a metaphysicist account for the consequences of stepping off a curb directly into the path of an oncoming car?

    Leave a comment:


  • Brad Thomson
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    All of this physics is quite interesting, but since my training is in metaphysics I must conclude that material substance does not exist and that all reality is mind.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mathieu Cloutier
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Originally posted by Garland Best View Post
    Well yes, that was sort of my point. The same logic goes to an electron striking the screen in a double slit experiment. The electron might hit one point on the screen or another, you cannot predict as an individual electron. But after millins of electrons you get a clear interference pattern that you can precisely model mathematically. But does your dice in your example really shows free will when it rolls a 6 instead of a 2? Does the electron? If no, how is the bacteria any different? And if it isn't, how is a person?
    It is not my field of study specifically, but I always thought it's a little preposterous to extrapolate one subatomic phenomenon to an organism composed of billions of billons of billions of atoms. The scales are so vastly different as to warrant some healthy skepticism (in my humble opinion). But physicists do that all the time and it seems they don't get challenged by the biologists.

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  • Garland Best
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Perhaps I didn't see your response while scanning through the posts. Thanks for the nudge. I'm flattered that you were so anxious to hear my feedback.

    Leave a comment:


  • Garland Best
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Originally posted by Paul Bonham View Post
    Given all that, how can we account for any consistency in human behavior? Why wouldn't that same breeze make one change from being politically left to politically right....sometimes?

    If the probability you mention reaches 100% at certain levels of input, could the brain be feeding certain neurons with the level of stimulation required to ensure those neurons fire (in response to some outside stimuli)? And if yes, could it be that during infancy and childhood, the brain is feeding specific neurons with a lower stimulation level in order to allow them to "possibly fire".... and for the neurons that do fire, if another part of the brain decodes the outcome as "good" or at least "not bad", something in the brain "remembers" that those particular neurons should be supplied with the REQUIRED stimulation to fire from that point on in response to the same stimuli? Could this be the process of learning?
    1) Said breeze could but it is highly unlikely, unless there are extenuating circumstances. The brain also makes its decisions based on decisions it has made in the past. The more often it has made the same decision the more often it will make the same decision again. Neurologists refer to this as plasticity of our though processes. The more ingrained our thought processes are the more "force" is needed to exert change. In my example I gave two rather arbitrary choices that have little impact one way or another. The breeze in question could affect the decision because the options are so evenly balanced. On the other hand changing from politically right to politically left could be the difference of said breeze while reading another one of Trumps tweets. But I digress. :p

    2) If I understand what I read about neuroscience, if a given firing pattern in the brain creates a favorable result, a positive feedback system in the brain encourages the growth of neuroreceptors in the brain, thus increasing the flow of dopamines and increasing the likelyhood of repeating the firing pattern. This starts from the point when the first neurons start triggering in the fetus. Initially these are very simple responses to very simple stimuli (neurons make heart beat => blood flows => neurons get nourished), but as neural complexity increases so do the variety of inputs and levels of abstraction that generate positive feedback. The growth of neural pathways and new firing patterns in the brain in response to feedback constitutes learning. The oldest pathways with the greatest degree of reinforcement are the hardest to change. But the initial growth of pathways is influenced by chaos theory.


    Originally posted by Paul Bonham View Post
    Perhaps in your example the "decision" of an individual bacteria of when (if ever) to switch from metabolizing glucose to metabolizing fructose as the fructose to glucose ratio increases is akin to an individual roll of N 6-sided dice. The individual roll could sum up to any total between N and (N*6) inclusive at any time, so that roll has "free will". But as you increase the number of times rolling the N dice, a consistent and repeatable probabilistic pattern of outcomes emerges, just as the several million bacteria will decide in a consistent and predictable pattern based on the actual fructose to glucose ratio.
    Well yes, that was sort of my point. The same logic goes to an electron striking the screen in a double slit experiment. The electron might hit one point on the screen or another, you cannot predict as an individual electron. But after millins of electrons you get a clear interference pattern that you can precisely model mathematically. But does your dice in your example really shows free will when it rolls a 6 instead of a 2? Does the electron? If no, how is the bacteria any different? And if it isn't, how is a person?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mathieu Cloutier
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Originally posted by Stephen Wright View Post
    One wonders what Sir Roger's brother, ten-time British champion Jonathan Penrose, thinks of the position and the assertions about it ...
    Well, the guy is in his 80s. He probably doesn't know much about chess engines. Or his information is simply outdated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stephen Wright
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    One wonders what Sir Roger's brother, ten-time British champion Jonathan Penrose, thinks of the position and the assertions about it ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Ken MacDonald
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Originally posted by Mathieu Cloutier View Post
    Interesting. This is not the image I had in that old memory, but, it seems to fit my other feelings about the game. I will look at it.

    Thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • Mathieu Cloutier
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Maybe this game?

    http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070875

    Leave a comment:


  • Ken MacDonald
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    I have a vague memory of a game that Kasparov won against a computer (Deep Blue?) where there were facing Pawn chains from middle and before of the board, maybe the Q or K file over to maybe the h-file. Can anyone present that game. I would like to find it again. It seemed obvious that White would win, but the horizon prevented the computer from knowing that. I would like to put that position into my software to determine if it could tell today that White was winning.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Bonham
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    I guess Garland doesn't want to answer the rather obvious questions I asked in response to his points.

    Meanwhile, here is something that just came out yesterday, very coincidentally on this topic:

    Two quantum physicists walk in and out of a bar

    Leave a comment:


  • Wayne Komer
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    March 21, 2017

    Frederic Friedel continues his discussion of knowledge vs brute force with chess engines:

    http://en.chessbase.com/post/compute...vs-brute-force

    He analyzes the game David Levy vs Chess 4.8 from an exhibition game in 1979:

    Hamburg, Germany
    Round 1, Feb. 7, 1979
    Levy, David – Chess 4.8
    C37 King’s Gambit Accepted, Rosentreter Gambit

    1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 g4 5.Bxf4 gxf3 6.Qxf3 Nc6 7.d5 Qf6 8.dxc6 Qxb2 9.Bc4 Qxa1 10.Bxf7+ Kd8 11.O-O Qg7 12.Bd5 Bc5+ 13.Be3 Bxe3+ 14.Qxe3 dxc6 15.Rf7 Qh6 16.Qd4 cxd5 17.Qxh8 Qb6+ 18.Kf1 Qxb1+ 19.Kf2 Qxc2+ 20.Kg3 Qd3+ 21.Rf3 Qxe4 22.Qxg8+ Kd7 23.Qg7+ Kc6 24.Rc3+ Kb5 25.Rb3+ Ka4 26.Qc3 Qg4+ 27.Kf2 Qc4 28.Ra3+ Kb5 29.Qa5+ Kc6 30.Rc3 Be6 31.Qa4+ Kd6 32.Rxc4 dxc4 33.Qb4+ Kc6 34.Qa4+ b5 35.Qa6+ Kd7 36.Qxb5+ Kd6 37.Qb4+ c5 38.Qd2+ Kc7 39.Qh6 Bg8 40.Qg7+ Kc6 41.g4 a6 42.Qf6+ Kb5 43.Qd6 Kb4 44.Qb6+ Ka3 45.Qc6 Rf8+ 46.Ke3 Rb8 47.Qxa6+ Kb2 48.Qd6 Ra8 49.Qd2+ Ka3 50.h4 Ra6 51.g5 Ra8 52.h5 Re8+ 53.Kf4 Ra8 54.Ke5 Ra6 55.g6 hxg6 56.hxg6 Ra8 57.Kf6 Ra4 58.Kg7 Ra8 59.Qg2 Rd8 60.Qc6 Rd3 61.Qa6+ Kb4 62.Kxg8 Ra3 63.Qb6+ Kc3 64.g7 Rxa2 65.Kf7 Rf2+ 66.Ke7 Rg2 67.Qf6+ Kc2 68.Qf5+ Kb2 69.Kf7 c3 70.Qe5 c4 71.Qb5+ Kc1 72.Qxc4 Rxg7+ 73.Kxg7 c2 74.Kf6 Kd2 75.Qd4+ Kc1 76.Ke5 Kb1 77.Qb4+ Ka2 78.Qc3 Kb1 79.Qb3+ Ka1 80.Qa4+ Kb2 81.Qd4+ Kb1 82.Qd3 Kb2 83.Qb5+ Kc3 84.Qc5+ Kb2 85.Qb6+ Ka1 86.Qg1+ Kb2 87.Qb6+ Ka1 88.Qg1+ Kb2 89.Qb6+ Ka1 1/2-1/2

    Three-fold repetition

    https://chessprogramming.wikispaces....sus+Chess+1978

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  • Dan Scoones
    replied
    Re: A chess problem solvable by intuition but not by computers

    Originally posted by Kevin Pacey View Post
    Kind of reminds me of a game I played long ago against an Alekhine's Defence player. After I won, thanks to an extra pawn, in the post-mortem every other word my opponent said was "blockade" - but he never did succeed in doing so, by the time the analysis was done. :)
    It sounds to me like he grabbed the wrong knight on move one.

    Leave a comment:

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