Neil Frarey and the CFC

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

Paul Bonham posted something today (under the Trump thread, which I guessed Fred M. may not read) which I think more properly belongs in this thread:

"...
Obama bailed out GM and Chrysler to restore a sense of economic control and stability. Simultaneously the FED was engaged in Quantitive Easing.

Gradually.... GRADUALLY, NEIL!.... the unemployment rate was brought down, jobs were created, the economy began to recover, but of course, the food stamp program was at record usage even in 2014 because of the built-in lag. Without that lag -- if the waivers had been ended a couple of years sooner -- the recovery would have sputtered and stalled.

You need to learn this kind of stuff if you really want to grow the CFC. You show a general tendency of oversimplification, much like Trump himself.

You say things are "easy peasy" without even understanding the fundamentals. For example, your idea of offering trial CFC memberships good for 2 or 3 rated CFC weekend events. There are 2 things to consider about this idea:

(1) with respect to juniors, this is merely going to delay new revenue to the CFC because the new juniors that take advantage of it are ones that are fully intending (or their parents are fully intending) to join the CFC anyway. So yeah, take advantage, delay that membership payment for a few rated events. There are very few juniors that are "on the fence" about joining the CFC and need a few trial events to convince them. Juniors are primarily brought to the CFC by their parents, and for those that are brought in, the parents' minds are already made up: "Yes, I want my kid(s) in the CFC. Oh, look, a trial membership, ok, let's use that before we have to actually pay."

(2) with respect to adults, you are going to be lucky to get 5% of trial memberships turning into actual paid memberships. You might get some decent number of adults using the trial memberships... they will get crushed (mostly by Juniors) in 2 or 3 rated events.... and they won't come back, except for the very few masochistic ones who have no social life (there's always a few of those).

The problem isn't so simple as getting people out to enter tournaments. The problem is getting them to totally enjoy the tournament experience, enough to throw away their normal weekend social life. This is the fundamental Neil Frarey (and many others before him) just doesn't get.

"Sell the sizzle, not the steak" doesn't work for chess, because once you get past the sizzle, the elite get the filet mignon and the rest get nothing but gristle.

Oversimplification of complex problems is a trait that Neil Frarey and Trump have in common. "Who knew that healthcare would be so complicated?" from Trump himself, ha ha ha !!!!!

Fred McKim, you have been suckered. But I did love how you offered Neil his true value ($1)."

Fwiw, I may not agree with everything Paul says here, but it may make for interesting discussion.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

...
You [Neil Frarey] say things are "easy peasy" without even understanding the fundamentals. For example, your idea of offering trial CFC memberships good for 2 or 3 rated CFC weekend events. There are 2 things to consider about this idea:

(1) with respect to juniors, this is merely going to delay new revenue to the CFC because the new juniors that take advantage of it are ones that are fully intending (or their parents are fully intending) to join the CFC anyway. So yeah, take advantage, delay that membership payment for a few rated events. There are very few juniors that are "on the fence" about joining the CFC and need a few trial events to convince them. Juniors are primarily brought to the CFC by their parents, and for those that are brought in, the parents' minds are already made up: "Yes, I want my kid(s) in the CFC. Oh, look, a trial membership, ok, let's use that before we have to actually pay."

(2) with respect to adults, you are going to be lucky to get 5% of trial memberships turning into actual paid memberships. You might get some decent number of adults using the trial memberships... they will get crushed (mostly by Juniors) in 2 or 3 rated events.... and they won't come back, except for the very few masochistic ones who have no social life (there's always a few of those).

[A]The problem isn't so simple as getting people out to enter tournaments. The problem is getting them to totally enjoy the tournament experience, enough to throw away their normal weekend social life. This is the fundamental Neil Frarey (and many others before him) just doesn't get.

[B]"Sell the sizzle, not the steak" doesn't work for chess, because once you get past the sizzle, the elite get the filet mignon and the rest get nothing but gristle.
...

I'll make some points of my own here. My first impression, at least, is that Paul is dead right on his point (1). Thus any trial membership ought not to be offered to juniors, it seems.

On Paul's point (2), if theoretically enticed newbie adults are put in an unrated players section, or a section of the lowest rated players, in each of their trial memberships' 2 or 3 rated events, they will not necessarily always get crushed, at least in all of their games - they might even tie for a low value prize now and then, at least. Anyway, if adults find chess at all interesting they can try to make room for some tournaments or going to a club, in a year, even if they have a social life involving other things. Also, if trial memberships are offered, and restricted to adults, the bonus is that the CFC is actually offering something to [potential] adult CFC members.

On Paul's point [A], it's often family commitments that prevent even veteran CFC members from coming out to many tournaments each year (though not all in their area). One thing that might help that is if the CFC ever got a server deal working; then adults could play other adult CFC members online often, at least. I think that bughouse chess between rounds is a joy for many juniors, and even some adults, though it's only set up by players themselves at events at the moment, typically.

On Paul's point [B], perhaps Neil is thinking of flaunting many Canadian/foreign elite player personalities and stats, when he says sell the sizzle in relation to chess. Not sure what he or Paul see as the steak - I'd see it at least as the gamescores from events, and/or participating in events. Fwiw, Halldor long ago said to me that when the CFC magazine used to feature even class player games, it was a positive, if only because if Mr. Jones and Mr. Smith know each other and live in Ottawa, for example, and Mr. Jones moves to Vancouver, there was still the chance that games played by either of the two of them might make the CFC magazine, and then they could see and play over the other pal's game and comments (however amateurish or unfunny these might be).

As far as elite vs. the rest of us, I see myself as more being of the rest of us these days. A certain GM regularly comes to Ottawa, greatly reducing my chances for a top prize at a given weekend event. Meanwhile, even class players can win more money in their section than I typically can hope for. Regularly winning cash is no long my 'steak' personally, if it ever really was. Maybe once I get even older my rating will crater, thanks to there being no CFC rating floor, and later still I'll somehow recover some of my senses and clean up a bit as a class player. :) Meanwhile, I enjoy playing a wide opening repertoire and socializing with other chess players, and I still win enough that the addiction is strong. In any case, getting more money and participants into Canadian chess tournaments, somehow, is as much or more the job of local organizers than the CFC or provincial chess organizations.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

Cool, cross thread pollination!

Kevin, re: free trails:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Are+free+trial+...ness+tactic%3F

*****

EOCA should run an Adults Only chess tournament.

*****

Organized chess can be divided into two major groups:

Rated and unrated.

And the game of chess itself can be presented as the following:

Game-based.

Player-based.

Or, maybe both. Susan Polgar is doing fantastic stuff!

And then there's:

Social-based ...which for me falls into the category of Game-based.

Let's see if we can identify some characteristics of the above.

Game-based chess promotion; promote the values and benefits of the game.

CMA is great example of this. Participation in CMA's core business doesn't rely on GMs. It relies on school programs and teaching. CMA is Game based.

Chess as a family time 'value'. The game being passed from one generation to another, social chess for the chess enthusiast ... Game based chess promotion. This where Canadian Heritage comes into perspective. Chess is Canadian Culture ... long long long before it ever was 'sport' culture. Again, Game based.

Player-based chess promotion; promote the attributes of the game.

CFC is a great example of this. CFC promotes levels of accomplishment in the form of a rating. That is their core business. They promote the player ...not the game. To the CFC, chess is a product. No scholastic program. No casual chess program. No chess enthusiast program. Nothing, other than competitive rated chess.

Player-based chess promotion has several fantastic opportunities ... but, there are also many short comings ...such as the disgruntled player.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

So Neil... in an earlier post, you had in mind player-based as 'the sizzle' to be sold, and game-based as being 'the steak'? Or is your paradigm shifting slightly?

Slightly off-topic, perhaps, I'm told there's a (informal?) Seniors' chess club in Ottawa's east end somewhere, these days, fwiw.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

So Neil... in an earlier post, you had in mind player-based as 'the sizzle' to be sold, and game-based as being 'the steak'? Or is your paradigm shifting slightly?

Slightly off-topic, perhaps, I'm told there's a (informal?) Seniors' chess club in Ottawa's east end somewhere, these days, fwiw.

That's correct, the sizzle is the Player-based. The steak is the Game-based.

BTW, another form of marketing the sizzle is through a negative campaign, or a campaign that causes some form of controversy. Great example of this would be the yuuuge amount of attention given to the CFC thanks its 2017 Canadian Closed. There's an amazing amount of 'bounce' that can come from that ...ditto for both the finalists!

CFC not having its own chess server was a complete shocker to me, as I stated to Sid somewhere back. Chess servers are uber useful data gatherers & profit generators. I'm sure if the call went out to all CFC Members there would have been a surplus of volunteers to moderate ...unfortunately under today's leadership no such call was sent and they relinquished most all core benefits that come from owning & running a popular chess server.

Just think of how much more effective the CFC could have packaged their Membership sales!

You have an elitist president.

Infuriating blunder!

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

Other questions... is social/casual chess the same as catering to chess enthusiasts? Or is there more that chess enthusiasts can be offered (I assume the answer is yes)? Can a chess enthusiast also be a serious competitive player (I assume the answer is yes)?

[Neil Frarey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

Other questions... is social/casual chess the same as catering to chess enthusiasts? Or is there more that chess enthusiasts can be offered (I assume the answer is yes)? Can a chess enthusiast also be a serious competitive player (I assume the answer is yes)?

That's actually a great question.

You can think of that whole category of Game-based as having multiple sections. I've coordinated Game-based chess promotion for years with my initiative creating Chapters chess. Three chess night per week (yep, three!) in three different Chapters Bookstores. And that was on top of cafe wim chess. Almost all of it wasn't rated, barely coordinated in terms of ongoing tournaments and had a great amount of positive chessvibe. Nobody really cared who won or lost.

But from that Game-based primordial ooze many players crossed over to the RACC and participated for years ...Player-based.

So, to answer your question ...yes.

Washington Square Park is full of 'em!

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

Fwiw, I'd be tempted to use 'casual (or social) player' in an attempt to be more precise than 'chess enthusiast'. I can see casual and tournament (or competitive) players both being referred to as the latter, but casual players never are tournament players until possibly later on. However, tournament players may indulge in playing casual (unrated) games at any time, which doesn't make them casual players though. A tournament player could suddenly decide to be merely a casual player, at least for a while. Just my attempt at terminology anyway.

Both casual and tournament players appreciate 'chessvibe' (i.e. all sorts of chess-related banter, I guess is meant), though it happens only before or after the game if it's a rated one. Sorry to be Captain Obvious, but I'm trying to help super-clarify things. :)

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

...
Chess is Canadian Culture ... long long long before it ever was 'sport' culture. Again, Game based.

Player-based chess promotion; promote the attributes of the game.

CFC is a great example of this. CFC promotes levels of accomplishment in the form of a rating. That is their core business. They promote the player ...not the game.
...

Rather off-topic, here's a wiki on Canadian Identity you might find interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_identity

Fwiw, long ago I asked a friend partly in jest how much might the world be different if Canada didn't exist. He smiled, said hmmm, and otherwise gave me no answer.

Again long ago, somewhere I heard the saying that Canada is a nation based on quality of life.


Also fwiw, writers in the CFC magazines, at least in the old days, once in a while alluded to a distinctly Canadian style, or school, of chess playing (I recall long ago a foreign writer [Soltis?] once observed that in our elite players' games of chess, Black often seems lost, but ends up winning). So, perhaps some effort to have Game based promotion on the CFC's part, in this regard anyway.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

Rather off-topic, here's a wiki on Canadian Identity you might find interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_identity

Fwiw, long ago I asked a friend partly in jest how much might the world be different if Canada didn't exist. He smiled, said hmmm, and otherwise gave me no answer.

Again long ago, somewhere I heard the saying that Canada is a nation based on quality of life.


Also fwiw, writers in the CFC magazines, at least in the old days, once in a while alluded to a distinctly Canadian style, or school, of chess playing (I recall long ago a foreign writer [Soltis?] once observed that in our elite players' games of chess, Black often seems lost, but ends up winning). So, perhaps some effort to have Game based promotion on the CFC's part, in this regard anyway.

All this [chess]talk about chess server and Canuck Ident has me revisiting the second interface I did for Society of Chess Aficionados. These Adobe Ps (Photoshop) and Illy (Illustrator) files of mine are massive. Just one file alone, a PSD (Photoshop Document) has over 720 layers!, each layer represents a design modification/development of some kind or other. In the year or so I have created folders & more folders of SoCA website design revisions. Currently on complete redesign #3 ...sigh. At some point I have to let this thing live on the innerwebs.

Aesthetics have ranged from broody moody dark to lighter uber techy FUIs (future user interface) with design inspiration coming from such sources as GMUNK's work on Oblivion: https://vimeo.com/64377100 ... and many others.

*****

Here's a few screen grabs of SoCA's game board (sans pieces) and analysis board(s)...

Basic chess board with a few buttons and typography:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_1.jpg

Same again but showing a world first ... 3D Notation ... a player activated widget (which comes with its own set of customizable features, expandable view port, rotational, etc..) located under the standard Game Notation:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_2.jpg

Player // Data Set ... great suggestion by fellow SoCA member Craig Sadler! The whole purpose of a PDS is to be able to 'drill down' into a player's data. Either your own data or another player's. It begins with a PDS card data graphic overlay:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_3.jpg

And then the user can 'drill down' into opening trees, ECO refs (those colored bar graphs, each horizontal segment represents 20%, the lower the vertical bar the lower the total percent) and other player data:

The arrows under the openings toggle; show more/less data ... the +-= toggle wins|losses|draws:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_4.jpg

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_5.jpg

This GUI graphic shows 4 analysis boards that can simultaneously run 4 separate branches:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_6.jpg

Most of the buttons are self explanatory ... except the one I love the most:

[PZ] Pizza.

Click on this button and a overlay (popup) will occur linking the player directly to Pizza Pizza! Order a pizza (or whatever) and get back to the game!

:D

Just an idea.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

Unfortunately, except for the first link you gave, I get a big security risk warning when I click on those links in your last post, Neil.

[Neil Frarey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

Unfortunately, except for the first link you gave, I get a big security risk warning when I click on those links in your last post, Neil.

Interesting! Sorry to read of your security risk warning issue, Kevin.

Just spoke with the folks who host our website [godaddy] and they were kind enough to test the links across multiple browsers; Firefox, Chrome, IE.

No issues were found.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

I'm using my old desktop computer, which is partitioned into Windows XP (on the Internet using side), and Windows 98 on the other half of the computer, which stores ancient chess software I have. These are ancient systems, but I don't care too much what happens to this computer. The Browser on the XP side is an old version of Internet Explorer at the moment.

I have a laptop that was upgraded from Vista to Windows 7 recently. I use it less since it starts up slower than my desktop, and I find my desktop more comfortable to use with my neck and back problems (minor but chronic). I'll try to get around to looking at your links on my laptop sometime.

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

Rather off-topic, here's a wiki on Canadian Identity you might find interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_identity

Fwiw, long ago I asked a friend partly in jest how much might the world be different if Canada didn't exist. He smiled, said hmmm, and otherwise gave me no answer.

Again long ago, somewhere I heard the saying that Canada is a nation based on quality of life.
...

Here's an interesting piece about whether Canada might have been crucial to the allies winning WWII (arguably the most important war in history to date) - so it seems without us, there might not now be a world at all worth living in:

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight...ithout_us.html

[Kevin Pacey]

Re: Neil Frarey and the CFC

All this [chess]talk about chess server and Canuck Ident has me revisiting the second interface I did for Society of Chess Aficionados. These Adobe Ps (Photoshop) and Illy (Illustrator) files of mine are massive. Just one file alone, a PSD (Photoshop Document) has over 720 layers!, each layer represents a design modification/development of some kind or other. In the year or so I have created folders & more folders of SoCA website design revisions. Currently on complete redesign #3 ...sigh. At some point I have to let this thing live on the innerwebs.

Aesthetics have ranged from broody moody dark to lighter uber techy FUIs (future user interface) with design inspiration coming from such sources as GMUNK's work on Oblivion: https://vimeo.com/64377100 ... and many others.

*****

Here's a few screen grabs of SoCA's game board (sans pieces) and analysis board(s)...

Basic chess board with a few buttons and typography:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_1.jpg

Same again but showing a world first ... 3D Notation ... a player activated widget (which comes with its own set of customizable features, expandable view port, rotational, etc..) located under the standard Game Notation:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_2.jpg

Player // Data Set ... great suggestion by fellow SoCA member Craig Sadler! The whole purpose of a PDS is to be able to 'drill down' into a player's data. Either your own data or another player's. It begins with a PDS card data graphic overlay:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_3.jpg

And then the user can 'drill down' into opening trees, ECO refs (those colored bar graphs, each horizontal segment represents 20%, the lower the vertical bar the lower the total percent) and other player data:

The arrows under the openings toggle; show more/less data ... the +-= toggle wins|losses|draws:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_4.jpg

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_5.jpg

This GUI graphic shows 4 analysis boards that can simultaneously run 4 separate branches:

https://societyofchessaficionados.wo...SoCA_GUI_6.jpg

Most of the buttons are self explanatory ... except the one I love the most:

[PZ] Pizza.

Click on this button and a overlay (popup) will occur linking the player directly to Pizza Pizza! Order a pizza (or whatever) and get back to the game!

:D

Just an idea.

Just looked at all your SoCA links in the quote on my laptop, Neil. The graphics look cool so far; a good start. If neither Black nor White pieces are to be coloured in any way, I'd suggest colouring the dark and/or light squares on the boards (or else the background), however lightly (if you'd try it, it might be tricky to avoid clashing with the very colourful small graphs, though).