Female Chess Players and Their Discomfort With Male Chess Players

[Mario Moran-Venegas]

"Men are like this" or "women are like this" are statement that are true for a specific society, culture, time.
Men and women are one. We are both putty shaped by our common history. We can change.
Solutions to women's complains can only come as a result of dialog with men.
I encourage those who haven't to listen to : https://www.perpetualchesspod.com/new go to the WOMEN IN CHESS section. Their opinions vary greatly.

[Pargat Perrer]

Over time, Pargat Perrer has proved to be a bit of an idiot on here. Not a capital offence, and most posters ignored him. However, after reading several truly cringe-worthy posts from him on this thread, he seems to be a totally unpleasant idiot. Why on earth are a few of you allowing him to drag you back into the dark ages - he should be gone?

Oh look, it's the hooligan here because he sees someone to be tramped upon. Those are the only times he shows up, and he's got his Doc Martens on to lay in a few kicks. I'm one of his favorite targets, perhaps because my first name is Pargat.

So, Freddy boy, exactly what posts of mine are "cringe-worthy"? Come on, be specific, let's see you join the patriarchal old boys chess club.

What's really cringe-worthy is that these old male hoots have immersed themselves so heavily into chess, they don't observe, learn about, or understand the world around them.

Too bad you aren't an attractive woman, Freddy, I'd invite you to dress in shorts and a tank top and walk into a sports bar alone and see what kind of behavior ensues. What you call "the dark ages" is very alive and well, just as Mother Nature intended. And a lot of the single women are GLAD it is alive and well. A lot of them are sick to death of wussy feminized males (pay attention, Henri Hughes!), and want to find a man's man. Why do you think Sean Connery as agent 007 was and still is very popular? Or Tom Cruise or Matt Damon or Keifer Sutherland or Bruce Willis? And how about Will Smith slapping Chris Rock! That got a LOT of female support! A man being a MAN!!!!!

And yes, I hate to say it, but even Donald Trump profited from females tired of wussy pacified men. Jeb Bush???? HAHAHAHA!! Mario Rubio??? HAHAHAHA!

Now, pay attention students: a man being a MAN includes a man who isn't afraid to STARE at a pretty unaccompanied woman in shorts and tank top. And if she don't like it .... she can always hang out with her girlfriends instead.

To comment on the original topic, chess is an individual game, and can attract more than it's fair share of losers with social issues. It is not really surprising that girls would find this more "challenging" than other activities, surely!

Yup, a lot of those losers with social issues right on this forum, you seem to be one of them Freddy-boy!

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for SOMEBODY with balls here to exactly define "bad behavior" by males at chess tournaments and to say EXACTLY what they will do to outlaw it. Both Bob G. and Bob A. have been invited to provide details. Come on, what the eff is taking so long?

Chess already has a bad rep as a refuge of the nerds. If you try and outlaw typical non-criminal male behavior towards females at chess tournaments, you only reinforce that image and drive more males away. And it's not like you are going to get droves of females to take their place.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

The role of the arbiter often involves a lot of discretionary decisions that just pop up spontaneously.

"Bad Behaviour" by men towards women is dealt with by the arbiter like everything else.

Bob Gillanders did answer you when he said he had every confidence that an arbiter could be discerning towards such situations.

I'd add that I know of a case where a player was not only kicked out of a tournament for sexual harassment of a junior, but was later banned for a time. Also, in my 55 years, I have seen many arbiters do an amazing job where both players are angry, and physical violence was a real possibility. They have divided the players and spoken to them separately, had the patience of Job, and been amazingly fair, acknowledging legitimate complaints on both sides.

~ Bob A (T-S/P)

[Patrick Kirby]

Pargat, no one is saying that the behaviour you describe doesn't happen. The issue is whether it's appropriate at a chess tournament. It's fair to expect men to restrain their urges in certain social contexts. I think people have been pretty clear what can be done. If someone feels uncomfortable they should speak up and if necessary report it to the TD.

[Pargat Perrer]

Pargat, no one is saying that the behaviour you describe doesn't happen. The issue is whether it's appropriate at a chess tournament. It's fair to expect men to restrain their urges in certain social contexts. I think people have been pretty clear what can be done. If someone feels uncomfortable they should speak up and if necessary report it to the TD.

I'm up very early and having my morning caffeine -- tea, not coffee. First of all, thanks Patrick for being a voice of civility here. While peabrains post trite nonsense about scumbags and regressed creeps (males who are man enough to stare at provocatively dressed females) and trolling and removing me from ChessTalk (for expressing my opinions!), you are showing much more intelligence.

Perhaps it would help matters if I explain why I am posting on this topic. I have 2 boys by marriage (not my biological sons) who have been involved in chess in Ontario. Their last name is not Perrer, so no one knows who they are. Before the pandemic, the elder of these boys lost a chess game to a female who was dressed very provocatively. He did not say much to me about it, but I was at the event witnessing this match and I knew exactly what happened. The female player used her sex as a weapon. She showed her ample cleavage and several times during the match she gave my boy a disarming cute smile, and when I saw it I knew exactly what was going on. She was distracting him with her attractiveness. She intended to win the match with her charms, and she succeeded.

After that game, my boy has never again played a chess tournament. He lost interest totally. I tried talking to him about it but he didn't want to. I let him have his space. But I know exactly what happened.

And so any talk about making things more "fair" for females in chess just gets me angry. What about the males? They are being taken advantage of by the females, and there is no way to prove it or document it or have any arbiter do anything about it.

So female players who complain to a TD about a male player staring at them or asking them in a skittles room if they want to go out on a date .... these females are crap in my book. It is all part of the same thing, to make females in chess as victims and males as scumbags. If you don't think females can be this calculating, you'd best think again.

So.... when I read the article mentioned by this McKillop character who started this thread, I felt the need to get involved.

So Patrick, I'll ask you the same question I've asked Bob A. and Bob G., exactly what "behavior" are we talking about when you say "appropriate"? Staring? Asking a girl for a date?

Neither is illegal nor is it sexual harassment. Both behaviors can happen anywhere, and chess tournaments should be no exception. REPEATEDLY asking a female for a date, even after being refused, can qualify as sexual harassment under law and I have made clear in my posts here that anything unlawful is another matter entirely. But Henri Hughes, for one, considers simply staring at a female as a sign of a "regressed creep". Staring at a female is not sexual harassment and should never be considered as such.

A female who feels uncomfortable about a male staring at her should NOT report this to the TD, because it is not a crime. That female should, since she feels so uncomfortable about it, learn to dress more conservatively. And if she does that and that same male still stares at her ... she needs to just LIVE WITH IT. As long as the male is not committing a crime, there is nothing to be reported.

I mean, come on.... if you are a male player and your opponent keeps staring at you, are you going to report that to the TD? The females who do report males staring at them are just taking advantage of their sex for possible recriminations against the male, who most likely is just responding to the female dressing provocatively.

Males should only be expected to "restrain their urges" at a chess tournament IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW. Nothing extra!!!!!

[Peter McKillop]

I'm up very early and having my morning caffeine -- tea, not coffee. First of all, thanks Patrick for being a voice of civility here. While peabrains post trite nonsense about scumbags and regressed creeps (males who are man enough to stare at provocatively dressed females) and trolling and removing me from ChessTalk (for expressing my opinions!), you are showing much more intelligence. ....

Well that's a bit confusing. You indicate to Patrick that you value civility and then in the very next sentence you talk about peabrains who, according to you, are much less intelligent than Patrick. So, do you value civility or don't you? And regarding Patrick, do you mean that in your opinion (I'm assuming here that you haven't actually completed a formal measurement of Patrick's intelligence level) Patrick has above-average or superior intelligence? Or do you mean that Patrick is at the top end of the peabrain scale; a sort of high-performing peabrain?

[Bob Armstrong]

My View - Some women do use sexual dressing as a weapon.......I heard one woman dressing this way say: "I'm dressing to go hunting!"

However, many women do not........they dress appropriately for the occasion.

But in any event, regardless of whether appropriate for the occasion in a particular male's assessment or not, men have to learn to control their sexual follow-ups with women and stay reasonable. This is regardless of how they may dress. it is true that depending on the setting, there may be a bit of leeway re follow-up.

Bottom Line: There are some women who use their sexuality as an asset in all paths of life. We males have to learn to deal!

~Bob A (T-S/P)

[Peter McKillop]

My View - Some women do use sexual dressing as a weapon.......I heard one woman dressing this way say: "I'm dressing to go hunting!"

However, many women do not........they dress appropriately for the occasion.

But in any event, regardless of whether appropriate for the occasion in a particular male's assessment or not, men have to learn to control their sexual follow-ups with women and stay reasonable. This is regardless of how they may dress. it is true that depending on the setting, there may be a bit of leeway re follow-up.

Bottom Line: There are some women who use their sexuality as an asset in all paths of life. We males have to learn to deal!

~Bob A (T-S/P)

Absolutely, Bob! I agree 100%. And this is what Henri was saying as well.

[Pargat Perrer]

Well that's a bit confusing. You indicate to Patrick that you value civility and then in the very next sentence you talk about peabrains who, according to you, are much less intelligent than Patrick. So, do you value civility or don't you? And regarding Patrick, do you mean that in your opinion (I'm assuming here that you haven't actually completed a formal measurement of Patrick's intelligence level) Patrick has above-average or superior intelligence? Or do you mean that Patrick is at the top end of the peabrain scale; a sort of high-performing peabrain?

This is the guy who ACCUSES ME of trolling.

[Peter McKillop]

This is the guy who ACCUSES ME of trolling.

To the best of my recollection, I don't believe I ever made any such accusation. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Pargat Perrer]

My View - Some women do use sexual dressing as a weapon.......I heard one woman dressing this way say: "I'm dressing to go hunting!"

However, many women do not........they dress appropriately for the occasion.

But in any event, regardless of whether appropriate for the occasion in a particular male's assessment or not, men have to learn to control their sexual follow-ups with women and stay reasonable. This is regardless of how they may dress. it is true that depending on the setting, there may be a bit of leeway re follow-up.

Bottom Line: There are some women who use their sexuality as an asset in all paths of life. We males have to learn to deal!

~Bob A (T-S/P)

I agree with your bottom line, Bob A. The males do indeed have to deal with it in a civil manner and work to keep their mind on the game.

And I would say the same to the females. If a male is doing something that is NOT ILLEGAL, and that includes staring, the female needs to deal with it in a civil manner. That means not whining about it to the TD, but just shutting it out of her mind and playing chess.

I would hope, Bob A., that as a TD, if a female complained about a male staring at her or several males giving her looks, you would advise that female that looking and even staring are NOT against the law and she should ignore it the same way she would if she were in some other public place.

Looking or staring at females does not make a male a "regressive creep". Do you agree, Bob A.?

Bob G. still hasn't answered my questions, i.e. what exactly constitutes in his mind as "bad behavior" by males and what exactly he would do about it.

[Pargat Perrer]

To the best of my recollection, I don't believe I ever made any such accusation. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Sorry, I goy you mixed up with Bob G.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

There is looking, and there is constantly staring at someone. If you are in the other person's direct line of sight, yes it can make you feel uncomfortable.

I have only done an adjudication job once in my long chess career.

So I'm going to opine that experienced arbiters will likely know how best to handle this.


My own view, for what it is worth, is that I would probably let the male know I have had a complaint, and that if he would not constantly look in the direction of the particular female, it would dampen down the situation immensely. It is simply a matter of making someone else feel comfortable in a chess tournament setting, regardless of whether the female may be considered to be over-sensitive.

If it will help another tournament player to play better, by stopping behaviour that is distracting to them,, I think most males would accommodate, regardless of their view of the legitimacy of the complaint.

Also, I recollect that in an earlier post somewhere, Bob G DID answer your question. It was to the effect that he felt arbiters do their job, and that they would deal with these situations is a fair manner. You may have missed this. It maybe he may have said it earlier, before you formally addressed your question to the two of us.....I don't recall when he posted this opinion.

Bob A

[Bob Gillanders]

Bob G. still hasn't answered my questions, i.e. what exactly constitutes in his mind as "bad behavior" by males and what exactly he would do about it.

I have no intention of expanding on my earlier comments.
The terms "bad behaviour" and "appropriate action" are meant to be vague so as to allow the TD the greatest level of discretion.
Each situation can have any number of nuances that may come into play. You need to rely upon the good judgement and experience of the TD or officials.
I put my faith in our Canadian TD's and club officials who demonstrate that good judgement on a regular basis. Nobody is 100%, but I prefer this to trying to define these terms.

[Pargat Perrer]

I have no intention of expanding on my earlier comments.
The terms "bad behaviour" and "appropriate action" are meant to be vague so as to allow the TD the greatest level of discretion.
Each situation can have any number of nuances that may come into play. You need to rely upon the good judgement and experience of the TD or officials.
I put my faith in our Canadian TD's and club officials who demonstrate that good judgement on a regular basis. Nobody is 100%, but I prefer this to trying to define these terms.

Bob G., are you now or have you ever been a politician? You talk just like one. Not only that, but a politically correct one as well.

But I had already realized that long before this thread came up, so the answer you have above is exactly what I expected.

And you are the guy who wants something done about climate change. Just keep all the climate change definitions vague, and keep putting your faith in the political system who demonstrate good judgement on a regular basis. LOL

Meanwhile, any female chess player reading this thread (HA!) now realizes she can dress provocatively at a Bob G. chess event to the point of distracting her male opponents into playing bad games against her, and if any of the males looks at her sideways she can lodge a complaint to Bob G. and he will probably have that male player removed from the event.