Female Chess Players and Their Discomfort With Male Chess Players

[Pargat Perrer]

I completely disagree. This thread started with a hit piece that amounted to male bashing. (I will not dispute where it ended up.)

Brad, you have a way of hitting the nail on the head!

[Pargat Perrer]

This thread is so typically (and comically, and pathetically) Chesstalk. It starts out as an attempt to discuss why girls/women might feel unsafe at chess tournaments and possible options for dealing with the matter, and winds up focusing on how to protect boys/men from cleavage.

It may be typically ChessTalk, but it isn't limited to just ChessTalk. I participate in many forums (usually under a nickname) and this type of thing happens everywhere.

If you really want to see the "wild west" in discussion forums, try any of the ones on Craigslist. ChessTalk is very muted compared to those.

As for where this one started out and ended up .... if you don't understand that women/girls feeling safe around males and males feeling safe from female cleavage are 2 sides of the same coin, well, I can only conclude you don't get out much, Peter.

[Pargat Perrer]

You're playing the same game with the unclear definition of dressing "provocatively." However I think most would agree that it should be treated the same way, if someone feels another person's outfit is inappropriate they can report it. Same with distracting behaviour like flashing cleavage.

I deliberately didn't define "provocatively" because any action taken or restrictions imposed by organizers is going to be arbitrary and subjective.

It is my opinion that chess by its very nature of having two opponents sitting straight across from each other for possibly several hours is not conducive to events pitting males against females. The females can use provocative dress, the males can use staring to unsettle the concentration of the opponent.

Of course, having two homosexual males or two homosexual females play against each other can result in the same.... but is it the same? We'd need to hear from them. Peter McKillop assumes that homosexual males and heterosexual males have the same sexual libido, just directed at opposite sexes. I respectfully disagree. The point is, we'd have to be in their shoes to really know.

At any rate, we can't make everyone happy. I really don't care what happens on this issue, my family and I are out of chess completely. TDs can do whatever they want. I just chimed in on this topic to make sure both sexes get represented properly. Calling heterosexual males who stare at females "regressive creeps" or "scumbags" only exacerbates the problem. As I've already stated, you can't fight Mother Nature.... or more specifically, male hormones.

You can try, but you will just create misery and misunderstanding.

[Brad Thomson]

This thread is so typically (and comically, and pathetically) Chesstalk. It starts out as an attempt to discuss why girls/women might feel unsafe at chess tournaments and possible options for dealing with the matter, and winds up focusing on how to protect boys/men from cleavage.

I completely disagree. This thread started with a hit piece that amounted to male bashing. (I will not dispute where it ended up.)

[Fred Harvey]

Fred, you have a way of hitting the nail on the head!

Why thank you! But please don't try to set up a popularity poll......

[Peter McKillop]

But what do you expect from a bunch of chess players? Isn't this the answer to your original debate question! Most threads on here that disintegrate at least have entertainment value ... but this one has been particularly brutal.

Fred, you have a way of hitting the nail on the head!

[Fred Harvey]

This thread is so typically (and comically, and pathetically) Chesstalk. It starts out as an attempt to discuss why girls/women might feel unsafe at chess tournaments and possible options for dealing with the matter, and winds up focusing on how to protect boys/men from cleavage.

But what do you expect from a bunch of chess players? Isn't this the answer to your original debate question! Most threads on here that disintegrate at least have entertainment value ... but this one has been particularly brutal.

[Peter McKillop]

This thread is so typically (and comically, and pathetically) Chesstalk. It starts out as an attempt to discuss why girls/women might feel unsafe at chess tournaments and possible options for dealing with the matter, and winds up focusing on how to protect boys/men from cleavage.

[Patrick Kirby]

You're playing the same game with the unclear definition of dressing "provocatively." However I think most would agree that it should be treated the same way, if someone feels another person's outfit is inappropriate they can report it. Same with distracting behaviour like flashing cleavage.

[Pargat Perrer]

I have no intention of expanding on my earlier comments.
The terms "bad behaviour" and "appropriate action" are meant to be vague so as to allow the TD the greatest level of discretion.
Each situation can have any number of nuances that may come into play. You need to rely upon the good judgement and experience of the TD or officials.
I put my faith in our Canadian TD's and club officials who demonstrate that good judgement on a regular basis. Nobody is 100%, but I prefer this to trying to define these terms.

Bob G., are you now or have you ever been a politician? You talk just like one. Not only that, but a politically correct one as well.

But I had already realized that long before this thread came up, so the answer you have above is exactly what I expected.

And you are the guy who wants something done about climate change. Just keep all the climate change definitions vague, and keep putting your faith in the political system who demonstrate good judgement on a regular basis. LOL

Meanwhile, any female chess player reading this thread (HA!) now realizes she can dress provocatively at a Bob G. chess event to the point of distracting her male opponents into playing bad games against her, and if any of the males looks at her sideways she can lodge a complaint to Bob G. and he will probably have that male player removed from the event.

[Bob Gillanders]

Bob G. still hasn't answered my questions, i.e. what exactly constitutes in his mind as "bad behavior" by males and what exactly he would do about it.

I have no intention of expanding on my earlier comments.
The terms "bad behaviour" and "appropriate action" are meant to be vague so as to allow the TD the greatest level of discretion.
Each situation can have any number of nuances that may come into play. You need to rely upon the good judgement and experience of the TD or officials.
I put my faith in our Canadian TD's and club officials who demonstrate that good judgement on a regular basis. Nobody is 100%, but I prefer this to trying to define these terms.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

There is looking, and there is constantly staring at someone. If you are in the other person's direct line of sight, yes it can make you feel uncomfortable.

I have only done an adjudication job once in my long chess career.

So I'm going to opine that experienced arbiters will likely know how best to handle this.


My own view, for what it is worth, is that I would probably let the male know I have had a complaint, and that if he would not constantly look in the direction of the particular female, it would dampen down the situation immensely. It is simply a matter of making someone else feel comfortable in a chess tournament setting, regardless of whether the female may be considered to be over-sensitive.

If it will help another tournament player to play better, by stopping behaviour that is distracting to them,, I think most males would accommodate, regardless of their view of the legitimacy of the complaint.

Also, I recollect that in an earlier post somewhere, Bob G DID answer your question. It was to the effect that he felt arbiters do their job, and that they would deal with these situations is a fair manner. You may have missed this. It maybe he may have said it earlier, before you formally addressed your question to the two of us.....I don't recall when he posted this opinion.

Bob A

[Pargat Perrer]

To the best of my recollection, I don't believe I ever made any such accusation. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Sorry, I goy you mixed up with Bob G.

[Pargat Perrer]

My View - Some women do use sexual dressing as a weapon.......I heard one woman dressing this way say: "I'm dressing to go hunting!"

However, many women do not........they dress appropriately for the occasion.

But in any event, regardless of whether appropriate for the occasion in a particular male's assessment or not, men have to learn to control their sexual follow-ups with women and stay reasonable. This is regardless of how they may dress. it is true that depending on the setting, there may be a bit of leeway re follow-up.

Bottom Line: There are some women who use their sexuality as an asset in all paths of life. We males have to learn to deal!

~Bob A (T-S/P)

I agree with your bottom line, Bob A. The males do indeed have to deal with it in a civil manner and work to keep their mind on the game.

And I would say the same to the females. If a male is doing something that is NOT ILLEGAL, and that includes staring, the female needs to deal with it in a civil manner. That means not whining about it to the TD, but just shutting it out of her mind and playing chess.

I would hope, Bob A., that as a TD, if a female complained about a male staring at her or several males giving her looks, you would advise that female that looking and even staring are NOT against the law and she should ignore it the same way she would if she were in some other public place.

Looking or staring at females does not make a male a "regressive creep". Do you agree, Bob A.?

Bob G. still hasn't answered my questions, i.e. what exactly constitutes in his mind as "bad behavior" by males and what exactly he would do about it.

[Peter McKillop]

This is the guy who ACCUSES ME of trolling.

To the best of my recollection, I don't believe I ever made any such accusation. Feel free to prove me wrong.