Female Chess Players and Their Discomfort With Male Chess Players

[Pargat Perrer]

Well that's a bit confusing. You indicate to Patrick that you value civility and then in the very next sentence you talk about peabrains who, according to you, are much less intelligent than Patrick. So, do you value civility or don't you? And regarding Patrick, do you mean that in your opinion (I'm assuming here that you haven't actually completed a formal measurement of Patrick's intelligence level) Patrick has above-average or superior intelligence? Or do you mean that Patrick is at the top end of the peabrain scale; a sort of high-performing peabrain?

This is the guy who ACCUSES ME of trolling.

[Peter McKillop]

My View - Some women do use sexual dressing as a weapon.......I heard one woman dressing this way say: "I'm dressing to go hunting!"

However, many women do not........they dress appropriately for the occasion.

But in any event, regardless of whether appropriate for the occasion in a particular male's assessment or not, men have to learn to control their sexual follow-ups with women and stay reasonable. This is regardless of how they may dress. it is true that depending on the setting, there may be a bit of leeway re follow-up.

Bottom Line: There are some women who use their sexuality as an asset in all paths of life. We males have to learn to deal!

~Bob A (T-S/P)

Absolutely, Bob! I agree 100%. And this is what Henri was saying as well.

[Bob Armstrong]

My View - Some women do use sexual dressing as a weapon.......I heard one woman dressing this way say: "I'm dressing to go hunting!"

However, many women do not........they dress appropriately for the occasion.

But in any event, regardless of whether appropriate for the occasion in a particular male's assessment or not, men have to learn to control their sexual follow-ups with women and stay reasonable. This is regardless of how they may dress. it is true that depending on the setting, there may be a bit of leeway re follow-up.

Bottom Line: There are some women who use their sexuality as an asset in all paths of life. We males have to learn to deal!

~Bob A (T-S/P)

[Peter McKillop]

I'm up very early and having my morning caffeine -- tea, not coffee. First of all, thanks Patrick for being a voice of civility here. While peabrains post trite nonsense about scumbags and regressed creeps (males who are man enough to stare at provocatively dressed females) and trolling and removing me from ChessTalk (for expressing my opinions!), you are showing much more intelligence. ....

Well that's a bit confusing. You indicate to Patrick that you value civility and then in the very next sentence you talk about peabrains who, according to you, are much less intelligent than Patrick. So, do you value civility or don't you? And regarding Patrick, do you mean that in your opinion (I'm assuming here that you haven't actually completed a formal measurement of Patrick's intelligence level) Patrick has above-average or superior intelligence? Or do you mean that Patrick is at the top end of the peabrain scale; a sort of high-performing peabrain?

[Pargat Perrer]

Pargat, no one is saying that the behaviour you describe doesn't happen. The issue is whether it's appropriate at a chess tournament. It's fair to expect men to restrain their urges in certain social contexts. I think people have been pretty clear what can be done. If someone feels uncomfortable they should speak up and if necessary report it to the TD.

I'm up very early and having my morning caffeine -- tea, not coffee. First of all, thanks Patrick for being a voice of civility here. While peabrains post trite nonsense about scumbags and regressed creeps (males who are man enough to stare at provocatively dressed females) and trolling and removing me from ChessTalk (for expressing my opinions!), you are showing much more intelligence.

Perhaps it would help matters if I explain why I am posting on this topic. I have 2 boys by marriage (not my biological sons) who have been involved in chess in Ontario. Their last name is not Perrer, so no one knows who they are. Before the pandemic, the elder of these boys lost a chess game to a female who was dressed very provocatively. He did not say much to me about it, but I was at the event witnessing this match and I knew exactly what happened. The female player used her sex as a weapon. She showed her ample cleavage and several times during the match she gave my boy a disarming cute smile, and when I saw it I knew exactly what was going on. She was distracting him with her attractiveness. She intended to win the match with her charms, and she succeeded.

After that game, my boy has never again played a chess tournament. He lost interest totally. I tried talking to him about it but he didn't want to. I let him have his space. But I know exactly what happened.

And so any talk about making things more "fair" for females in chess just gets me angry. What about the males? They are being taken advantage of by the females, and there is no way to prove it or document it or have any arbiter do anything about it.

So female players who complain to a TD about a male player staring at them or asking them in a skittles room if they want to go out on a date .... these females are crap in my book. It is all part of the same thing, to make females in chess as victims and males as scumbags. If you don't think females can be this calculating, you'd best think again.

So.... when I read the article mentioned by this McKillop character who started this thread, I felt the need to get involved.

So Patrick, I'll ask you the same question I've asked Bob A. and Bob G., exactly what "behavior" are we talking about when you say "appropriate"? Staring? Asking a girl for a date?

Neither is illegal nor is it sexual harassment. Both behaviors can happen anywhere, and chess tournaments should be no exception. REPEATEDLY asking a female for a date, even after being refused, can qualify as sexual harassment under law and I have made clear in my posts here that anything unlawful is another matter entirely. But Henri Hughes, for one, considers simply staring at a female as a sign of a "regressed creep". Staring at a female is not sexual harassment and should never be considered as such.

A female who feels uncomfortable about a male staring at her should NOT report this to the TD, because it is not a crime. That female should, since she feels so uncomfortable about it, learn to dress more conservatively. And if she does that and that same male still stares at her ... she needs to just LIVE WITH IT. As long as the male is not committing a crime, there is nothing to be reported.

I mean, come on.... if you are a male player and your opponent keeps staring at you, are you going to report that to the TD? The females who do report males staring at them are just taking advantage of their sex for possible recriminations against the male, who most likely is just responding to the female dressing provocatively.

Males should only be expected to "restrain their urges" at a chess tournament IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW. Nothing extra!!!!!

[Patrick Kirby]

Pargat, no one is saying that the behaviour you describe doesn't happen. The issue is whether it's appropriate at a chess tournament. It's fair to expect men to restrain their urges in certain social contexts. I think people have been pretty clear what can be done. If someone feels uncomfortable they should speak up and if necessary report it to the TD.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Pargat:

The role of the arbiter often involves a lot of discretionary decisions that just pop up spontaneously.

"Bad Behaviour" by men towards women is dealt with by the arbiter like everything else.

Bob Gillanders did answer you when he said he had every confidence that an arbiter could be discerning towards such situations.

I'd add that I know of a case where a player was not only kicked out of a tournament for sexual harassment of a junior, but was later banned for a time. Also, in my 55 years, I have seen many arbiters do an amazing job where both players are angry, and physical violence was a real possibility. They have divided the players and spoken to them separately, had the patience of Job, and been amazingly fair, acknowledging legitimate complaints on both sides.

~ Bob A (T-S/P)

[Pargat Perrer]

Over time, Pargat Perrer has proved to be a bit of an idiot on here. Not a capital offence, and most posters ignored him. However, after reading several truly cringe-worthy posts from him on this thread, he seems to be a totally unpleasant idiot. Why on earth are a few of you allowing him to drag you back into the dark ages - he should be gone?

Oh look, it's the hooligan here because he sees someone to be tramped upon. Those are the only times he shows up, and he's got his Doc Martens on to lay in a few kicks. I'm one of his favorite targets, perhaps because my first name is Pargat.

So, Freddy boy, exactly what posts of mine are "cringe-worthy"? Come on, be specific, let's see you join the patriarchal old boys chess club.

What's really cringe-worthy is that these old male hoots have immersed themselves so heavily into chess, they don't observe, learn about, or understand the world around them.

Too bad you aren't an attractive woman, Freddy, I'd invite you to dress in shorts and a tank top and walk into a sports bar alone and see what kind of behavior ensues. What you call "the dark ages" is very alive and well, just as Mother Nature intended. And a lot of the single women are GLAD it is alive and well. A lot of them are sick to death of wussy feminized males (pay attention, Henri Hughes!), and want to find a man's man. Why do you think Sean Connery as agent 007 was and still is very popular? Or Tom Cruise or Matt Damon or Keifer Sutherland or Bruce Willis? And how about Will Smith slapping Chris Rock! That got a LOT of female support! A man being a MAN!!!!!

And yes, I hate to say it, but even Donald Trump profited from females tired of wussy pacified men. Jeb Bush???? HAHAHAHA!! Mario Rubio??? HAHAHAHA!

Now, pay attention students: a man being a MAN includes a man who isn't afraid to STARE at a pretty unaccompanied woman in shorts and tank top. And if she don't like it .... she can always hang out with her girlfriends instead.

To comment on the original topic, chess is an individual game, and can attract more than it's fair share of losers with social issues. It is not really surprising that girls would find this more "challenging" than other activities, surely!

Yup, a lot of those losers with social issues right on this forum, you seem to be one of them Freddy-boy!

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for SOMEBODY with balls here to exactly define "bad behavior" by males at chess tournaments and to say EXACTLY what they will do to outlaw it. Both Bob G. and Bob A. have been invited to provide details. Come on, what the eff is taking so long?

Chess already has a bad rep as a refuge of the nerds. If you try and outlaw typical non-criminal male behavior towards females at chess tournaments, you only reinforce that image and drive more males away. And it's not like you are going to get droves of females to take their place.

[Mario Moran-Venegas]

"Men are like this" or "women are like this" are statement that are true for a specific society, culture, time.
Men and women are one. We are both putty shaped by our common history. We can change.
Solutions to women's complains can only come as a result of dialog with men.
I encourage those who haven't to listen to : https://www.perpetualchesspod.com/new go to the WOMEN IN CHESS section. Their opinions vary greatly.

[Fred Harvey]

Over time, Pargat Perrer has proved to be a bit of an idiot on here. Not a capital offence, and most posters ignored him. However, after reading several truly cringe-worthy posts from him on this thread, he seems to be a totally unpleasant idiot. Why on earth are a few of you allowing him to drag you back into the dark ages - he should be gone?

To comment on the original topic, chess is an individual game, and can attract more than it's fair share of losers with social issues. It is not really surprising that girls would find this more "challenging" than other activities, surely!

[Peter McKillop]

I have not written that there is "something wrong" with you. That is your interpretation and it is wrong. Peter McKillop has made the same mistake, he writes that I used the term homosexual as a pejorative. That is daft and I challenge him to prove it. ....

Happy to oblige, Pargat.

So males who stare at pretty females are "regressed creeps"? I think you are guilty of your own form of bs. I could ask if you are a homosexual, but that would probably be considered a privacy invasion. Instead, I will simply assume you are a homosexual.

In this thread, I believe the above was your first direct response to Henri. So what load of shit are you going to lay on us now, Pargat?

[Pargat Perrer]

Well, this thread has been mildly entertaining.
But it appears to me (with my limited literary comprehension) that Pargat is simply trolling everyone.

I think the overwhelming majority of chess players display acceptable social behaviour at tournaments and clubs.
I am sure a few bad apples exist. I would hope their victims would bring it to the attention of the TD or club officials.
That is far better than suffering in silence or quitting.

It should be easy to spot any bad behaviour at the board if we are alerted to the problem.
As TD, I would watch for it and take appropriate action.

Such trite, non-thinking responses. "Pargat is using homosexual as a pejorative" (no evidence). "Pargat is trolling everyone" (this statement can be made about anyone with no evidence).

Where are the thinking people here?

Bob G., you are denying there is a problem except for a few "bad apples". You are diminishing the complaints of many women, as expressed here AND elsewhere.

Now, for the sake of doing some thinking, please define exactly:

1) the least offensive behavior of males towards females that you would consider "bad behaviour".

2) the exact meaning of "appropriate action".

These specifications should be WRITTEN INTO ANY MIXED TOURNAMENT EVENT YOU RUN AS TD. Otherwise, if you (for example) remove from your tournament any male who is staring at females and making them uncomfortable, you can be sued by that male in small claims court.

Also, I bet you have never "watched for it" in any event in the past in which you were TD. You are just now saying you will watch for it. In a month or so, you will have totally forgotten about it.

[Bob Gillanders]

Well, this thread has been mildly entertaining.
But it appears to me (with my limited literary comprehension) that Pargat is simply trolling everyone.

I think the overwhelming majority of chess players display acceptable social behaviour at tournaments and clubs.
I am sure a few bad apples exist. I would hope their victims would bring it to the attention of the TD or club officials.
That is far better than suffering in silence or quitting.

It should be easy to spot any bad behaviour at the board if we are alerted to the problem.
As TD, I would watch for it and take appropriate action.

[Pargat Perrer]

I can only hope this is poorly written parody. We aren't cavemen who have a brain the size of a peanut and have the ability to control our base urges when they make others uncomfortable.

No one is saying we don't have that ability. I'm asking why everything should be on the males. Would you agree that this controlling of our base urges is DIFFICULT for the typical heterosexual male, especially if he is single and between the ages of say 16 to whatever age you think such males no longer have such base urges?

If yes, you agree it is difficult, then why at chess tournaments should it all be on the males? The females are free to wear whatever they like ... in fact, in Ontario they are allowed by law to even go topless in public.

Let me repost what I posted earlier in this thread....

"The first reality the chess world has to face is that men – for the most part – are preoccupied with sex, particularly at chess tournaments.

This is not conjecture or opinion – what I'm saying is actually documented in "Chess Bitch: Women in the Ultimate Intellectual Sport," by Jennifer Shahade, a world-renowned chess player, educator and author.

...

Even grandmasters wrestle with thoughts of sex during chess tournaments. For instance, Shahade wrote that, according U.S. Chess Hall of Famer Alexander Shabalov, most men are thinking about sex for most of the game.

"With characteristic candor, the Latvian -born grandmaster tells me, 'In most games, I am thinking about girls for about fifty to seventy-five percent of the time,'" Shahade wrote."

Why don't you respond to that as well? Would you say Shabalov is some kind of pervert, or in Henri's words, "regressed creep"?

[Pargat Perrer]

Another brilliancy from Pargat Perrer! Are you really so ignorant as to think that homosexuals don't understand, and have no experience of, the male libido? The issue that is supposed to be under discussion in this thread is male harrassment of females in the world of chess. And Pargat Perrer thinks that it would be good, with no provocation, to insist that another poster must be homosexual because he's not bowing down to the Pargat Perrer point of view??

No, in Henri's case it's because Henri is not understanding the NATURAL behavior of heterosexual men when attractive females are around them. I have now given 3 possible reasons for his non-understanding. If you think the reason might be something else, please enlighten us.

This isn't about agreeing with my point of view, as you very well know Peter, so stop with the straw man arguments. This is about understanding the millennia-old and still current behavior of heterosexual males when pretty females are around and are dressed in attire such as shorts and tank tops. You can't regulate that to the point of trying to outlaw staring.

So in your mind, Pargat, poor Henri, because he had the temerity to disagree with you, must be homosexual, or pre-puberty, or hormone-delayed? Are you enjoying yourself here at Chesstalk, Pargat? Getting a lot of that inner violence and hatred off of your chest?

Again, not because Henri disagreed with me, you only embarrass yourself with that line of argument. Again, feel free to enlighten us if you have some other explanation for Henri's lack of understanding of NATURAL heterosexual male behavior when attractive females are around them dressed provocatively.

And thanks for the psychological analysis, Dr. McKillop. I think I'll go for a second opinion.

You have proven otherwise, Pargat. In your mind 'homosexual' is a pejorative term.

Ahhhh, the Doctor has made his conclusion. Well, what can one expect for a free analysis? or maybe he's going to bill OHIP???