Female Chess Players and Their Discomfort With Male Chess Players

[Peter McKillop]

Actually "you throw like a girl" isn't about power relations at all, it's about physiological differences between men and women that affect how hard they are able to throw. There's a performance gap in (almost) all sports, but the gap in throwing is even greater than in most.
...

I disagree. I don't think I've ever heard "you throw like a girl" used in a calm, rational discussion concerning physiological differences between men and women. Like Erik, I have heard it used as an insult. As I'm sure you know, insults are used to hurt, to offend, to express disrespect and contempt, and to defame. And yes, they certainly can, and do, play a part in destabilizing power relations. Think of a male bully in a work setting diminishing a co-worker in the eyes of others by using a "you throw like a girl" insult. Think of an abusive husband constantly cementing his control over his wife by way of verbal abuse; insult piled upon insult, day after day after day.

[Aris Marghetis]

A figure skater demonstrated how to throw the first pitch in a baseball game.

The new thing shall be "you're throwing like 50cnts"

we couldn't stop laughing reliving these clips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vXy2FfrTDM

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

"You throw like a girl?" .

A figure skater demonstrated how to throw the first pitch in a baseball game.

The new thing shall be "you're throwing like 50cnts"

[Patrick Kirby]

Also, from that article - With my daughter, for instance, the guy I found talking to her once tried to strike up a conversation with her in the skittles room and offer "advice" on how she could have won her games. I couldn't always be there to stop it because I'd still be playing a tournament round myself.

This is just something happens in every skittles room at every chess tournament. Unless there's some reason to think otherwise, it was most likely just a chess enthusiast enjoying kibitzing with other players. If I was at a tournament and I saw a couple of young girls analyzing their game, I don't think it would be inappropriate to kibitz a few suggestions, especially if I knew they were pretty decent players and serious about improving their game. That's one of the things that drew me into chess in the beginning, that people of all ages and backgrounds are welcomed into the community sharing a common passion. Trying to police this type of interaction seems a bit excessive.

[Patrick Kirby]

It's not just about sexual harassment but an upending of power relations. Some male's sense of masculine self is threatened when they lose to a female. It's not just being impotent. Haven't you heard the insult "You throw like a girl?" All throughout school you don't want to be considered weak like a girl, or the bullies will pick on you. These players take pride in their thinking, that men are more rational - then take an angry fit when they lose. The bullies better not find out. They will be ejected from the men's club.

Actually "you throw like a girl" isn't about power relations at all, it's about physiological differences between men and women that affect how hard they are able to throw. There's a performance gap in (almost) all sports, but the gap in throwing is even greater than in most.

In all my years playing chess I've honestly never seen what you describe. Chess players can be competitive and they generally don't like losing, but I've never seen someone throw a fit over losing to a women or girl.

As far as harassment of young women at chess tournaments, I'm sure it occurs from time to time, but I don't know what the solution could be other than to speak up when it happens. I'm sure it's a tiny minority of people and not reflective of chess culture at all. Is it worse in chess than in other male-dominated fields like construction, professional sports, etc.? I'm not so sure.

[Aris Marghetis]

Time for a break.

I hear ya, but I also did like your original post there.

[Steffen Roller]

This discussion reminds me of recent events at the Reykjavík Open. Twitch Streamer Lularobs posted her experience at the tournament and it wasn't necessarily a good one.

Check out some of her tweets:
https://twitter.com/lularobs/status/...IRdXUC3A-13FtQ

also:
https://chess24.com/en/read/news/fem...reykjavik-open

[Peter McKillop]

Time for a break.

[Pargat Perrer]

You came so close to getting it right, Pargat. What I want is for women to have the option of a women-only section "because some males make the females feel uncomfortable and maybe even unsafe." If a woman wishes to play in a section where males and females are both welcome, wonderful.



How do you know this about other sports, Pargat? Do you have access to research that you can cite or is the above just presumption on your part?

I think I understood all along that you meant for female-only sections to be an option, even though that wasn't specified in the original post. It would be something else entirely for one to say that females should ONLY play in their own sections. I don't know, is anyone in the chess world saying that? Maybe Nigel Short, but anyone else?

In my mention of the other thread on this topic, I did say females should encourage other females to join chess and to play in female-only sections.... I believe that Bob A. was arguing that females must play in sections with males in order to "steal" rating points from the males, but I was showing that mathematically the way the ELO rating works, that isn't necessary. But it doesn't mean I think females should ONLY play rated games against females. In fact, what I wanted to get across is that for any female considering chess, she shouldn't think that she MUST play males in order to achieve a high rating. So if she's one who would always go with the option of playing a female-only section, she should do that without worrying about her rating, and if she wants her rating to have more potential to reach male-GM level, she should encourage more females like herself into chess. In other words, grow the membership of females in female-only sections and you grow the rating range potential with that.

As far as other sports, you'll notice I wrote that "it doesn't seem to be the case" for other sports. That is to say, I"m not an expert and no, I haven't done research. I just haven't seen any reports of males being scumbags towards females in tennis or curling or any other sport where they intermingle. But that doesn't mean its not happening.

One thing I do remember is from years ago, I read an article somewhere that there were a lot of lesbians in women's tennis, and many of these lesbians were acting like scumbags to the straight women on the tour. Don't know if that is still happening.

[Bob Armstrong]

I hope that the male chess culture, with some discussion, and feedback from women/girl chess players, will evolve faster than seems to be happening in society generally.

Am I being too optimistic, that being a modest sized group in society, and somewhat cohesive, we have more potential to change more easily, than society at large?

Bob

[Peter McKillop]

It's not just about sexual harassment but an upending of power relations. Some male's sense of masculine self is threatened when they lose to a female. It's not just being impotent. Haven't you heard the insult "You throw like a girl?" All throughout school you don't want to be considered weak like a girl, or the bullies will pick on you. These players take pride in their thinking, that men are more rational - then take an angry fit when they lose. The bullies better not find out. They will be ejected from the men's club.

Thanks, Erik. All good points!

[Erik Malmsten]

It's not just about sexual harassment but an upending of power relations. Some male's sense of masculine self is threatened when they lose to a female. It's not just being impotent. Haven't you heard the insult "You throw like a girl?" All throughout school you don't want to be considered weak like a girl, or the bullies will pick on you. These players take pride in their thinking, that men are more rational - then take an angry fit when they lose. The bullies better not find out. They will be ejected from the men's club.

[Peter McKillop]

Ok, so I got the reason wrong, the reason you want female-only sections is because some males make the females feel uncomfortable and maybe even unsafe. ....

You came so close to getting it right, Pargat. What I want is for women to have the option of a women-only section "because some males make the females feel uncomfortable and maybe even unsafe." If a woman wishes to play in a section where males and females are both welcome, wonderful.

.... But ask yourself why the males might be doing that, and why it doesn't seem to be the case for other sports where males and females intermingle. ....

How do you know this about other sports, Pargat? Do you have access to research that you can cite or is the above just presumption on your part?

[Pargat Perrer]

Uhhhh.......no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I am not suggesting women-only sections because some libidinous jackass gets a woody on when his opponent is a woman. Please see my reply to Neil Frarey for particulars.

Ok, so I got the reason wrong, the reason you want female-only sections is because some males make the females feel uncomfortable and maybe even unsafe. But ask yourself why the males might be doing that, and why it doesn't seem to be the case for other sports where males and females intermingle. What i'm suggesting is that maybe the very nature of chess -- sitting across from an opponent for possibly several hours -- encourages the males to act this way (if not at the board, then away from the board).

Whether that "justifies" the males acting that way is another topic altogether. If a female walks into a bar all alone, she knows what to expect and should consider it part of the nature of being female and going into a bar alone. So could we say that maybe she should expect nearly the same if she plays chess against males, as part of the nature of being a female and playing chess against males?

I too am in favor of the option for separate female-only sections, and in another recent thread here on that topic, I suggested that females should encourage other females to play in such sections because if the numbers of females in chess became the same as the numbers of males, and the females where playing only amongst themselves, their ELO ratings would eventually be spread over the same range as the males, proving that females are not inferior to males at chess.

Re "scumbags," Pargat, have you ever noticed that there are some words/terms which, technically, can be applied to any human being but which, in reality, when they are used, are almost exclusively applied to men? "Scumbags" is one of those words/terms and I do not back away from using it when appropriate.

But Melania Trump says boys will be boys, and this excuses (in her mind) Donald Trump's numerous sexual assaults against women over the years. She's his WIFE and that's what she thinks!

Not only that, but huge numbers of American women are Donald Trump supporters DESPITE his proven sexual assaults. What I take from that is that maybe there are plenty of women -- either a majority or a very sizeable minority -- who actually APPROVE of boys being boys. In fact, they very likely ADMIRE men who are deferential and even dominant towards women.

So are such men actually scumbags, or are they just being "natural" men? Ok, sexual assault is assault and should always be considered such and prosecutable. But what about just being a typical male making crude sexual remarks or gestures towards women? I guess I am asking, if we exclude actual assaults and say that is always a crime, what behavior of males towards females that is NOT assault justifies calling such males scumbags? Are male construction workers scumbags for whistling at a pretty woman who walks by the construction site?

And... women themselves are not always sugar and spice and everything nice. What about females who play males at chess and deliberately dress provocatively and try to distract the male from the board, hoping to entice a blunder and win the game? Are they scumbags?

[Brad Thomson]

1. Women themselves, only, should decide when a separate, parallel, women-only, title system is no longer wanted by them! 2. It is not the right of FIDE alone to decide whether to abolish the separate, parallel, women-only, title system.

The systems are not parallel, woman have a lower bar, lesser standards. If the systems were parallel they would dissolve into one. Chess is sexist so long as it maintains a sexist system, unless we are prepared to argue that women are inferior to men at chess.