Female Chess Players and Their Discomfort With Male Chess Players

[Pargat Perrer]

Males who are still alive do notice women they consider, cute, beautiful or sexy..........in all paths of life. So why should chess be any different?

The issue is not whether males find some women attractive......the issue is declining to follow up!

We males are getting a clear message from women/girl chess players, that in chess tournaments, they are not looking for male "friends", and they would request not to be hit upon in this setting.

This request seems clear, regardless of how a woman/girl may dress.

~ Bob A (T-S/P)

So you ask "why should chess be any different?" meaning males should still "notice" females they consider attractive .... and then you state that males are being asked by the females "not to be hit upon in this setting" .... which setting, as I've mentioned here, requires the males to sit directly across from the females and often by distracted by the female's .... assets.

So tell us your opinion, Bob. Should males who are only doing what is natural, -- what they would be doing if a female came alone into a bar -- oblige the females in their request REGARDLESS OF HOW THE FEMALES DRESS?

If it is your opinion that yes, the males should oblige the females, then the next thing I ask is .... how do you police that? What should an organizer do to stop male "harassment" of females at mixed chess events?

Because I think it is a pipe dream that males are going to oblige the request without some kind of enforcement .... at which point, if such enforcement is brought in in some form, you would lose many MALES at chess tournaments.

[Henri Hughes]

This thread is interesting and quite philosophical, it relates to the age-old battle of the sexes. In the beginning men dominate because of physical strength. Then women fight back the only way they can, with the threat of withholding sex or of offering their favours somewhere else. Men need sex more than women, so the threat works. And here we are thousands of years later, but the human situation is still the same. Boys are still boys and girls are still girls. As a species we are immature, we have yet to grow up. And of course our time is running out.

implicating that women can only get what they want through sexual means?

[Henri Hughes]

What type of shorts are we talking about? I recall a female player wearing cut-off jeans that were skimpier than a pair of erotic panties (not to mention a very light tank-top). A few men did in fact make remarks (a couple of women too), many at least glared at her, and she came to me to complain about it. I do not recall being particularly sympathetic.

Now, I am not absolutely certain about this, but I do seem to remember an article in En Passant from my times at the CFC wherein Todd Southam commented upon males, or perhaps one male, being distracted by the provocative apparel of a female player.

its not a females responsibilty to dress a certain way so men wont look at them, nor is it there fault if some regressed creep stares at them because of his own pent up crap. this is patriarchal bs that is being projected onto the female chess population.

[Erik Malmsten]

This thread is interesting and quite philosophical, it relates to the age-old battle of the sexes. In the beginning men dominate because of physical strength. Then women fight back the only way they can, with the threat of withholding sex or of offering their favours somewhere else. Men need sex more than women, so the threat works. And here we are thousands of years later, but the human situation is still the same. Boys are still boys and girls are still girls. As a species we are immature, we have yet to grow up. And of course our time is running out.

There is the theory that in the beginning "human society was matriarchal—or at least "woman-centered" and goddess-worshipping—from the Paleolithic era, 1.5 to 2 million years ago, until sometime around 3000 BCE" Men were the dangerous hunters because they were dispensable. With the development of farming of animals and farm pens to protect from theft, power shifted to males. And with male farm ownership it was necessary to know which sons were the heirs, so women's sexuality were controlled.

As for sex, if men were any good at satisfying women, they might find that women need it as much. I've heard that men cleaning the house is great foreplay. But it's also an individual thing, with some needing little, others alot. We pile alot of our psychological needs into the sex basket.

[Erik Malmsten]

Also, from that article - With my daughter, for instance, the guy I found talking to her once tried to strike up a conversation with her in the skittles room and offer "advice" on how she could have won her games. I couldn't always be there to stop it because I'd still be playing a tournament round myself.

"Mansplaining" I've been guilty of that. A women player was upset that I said it was a theoretical draw. But it can also be an unhealthy attempt by a man to become a "mentor" or "friend," to exchange sexual glances, have dinner and so on. And when a group of men are leaning over, trapping her in, competing for her attention, it can be very uncomfortable.

[Peter McKillop]

Males who are still alive do notice women they consider, cute, beautiful or sexy..........in all paths of life. So why should chess be any different?

The issue is not whether males find some women attractive......the issue is declining to follow up!

We males are getting a clear message from women/girl chess players, that in chess tournaments, they are not looking for male "friends", and they would request not to be hit upon in this setting.

This request seems clear, regardless of how a woman/girl may dress.

~ Bob A (T-S/P)

Right you are, Bob!

[Bob Armstrong]

Males who are still alive do notice women they consider, cute, beautiful or sexy..........in all paths of life. So why should chess be any different?

The issue is not whether males find some women attractive......the issue is declining to follow up!

We males are getting a clear message from women/girl chess players, that in chess tournaments, they are not looking for male "friends", and they would request not to be hit upon in this setting.

This request seems clear, regardless of how a woman/girl may dress.

~ Bob A (T-S/P)

[Pargat Perrer]

This thread is interesting and quite philosophical, it relates to the age-old battle of the sexes. In the beginning men dominate because of physical strength. Then women fight back the only way they can, with the threat of withholding sex or of offering their favours somewhere else. Men need sex more than women, so the threat works. And here we are thousands of years later, but the human situation is still the same. Boys are still boys and girls are still girls. As a species we are immature, we have yet to grow up. And of course our time is running out.

Yes, let's continue the philosophical part of the discussion.

"Men need sex more than women" -- agreed. And it seems also that men need chess more than women.

Are chess and sex somehow one and the same? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean, eh? Know what I mean?

Or am I overthinking? (apologies to Peter McKillop)

[Brad Thomson]

This thread is interesting and quite philosophical, it relates to the age-old battle of the sexes. In the beginning men dominate because of physical strength. Then women fight back the only way they can, with the threat of withholding sex or of offering their favours somewhere else. Men need sex more than women, so the threat works. And here we are thousands of years later, but the human situation is still the same. Boys are still boys and girls are still girls. As a species we are immature, we have yet to grow up. And of course our time is running out.

[Brad Thomson]

There is 2 things to consider here. First, let me ask all the male ChessTalk readers here: If you witness female players walking around in shorts at a chess tournament while you are playing a game, WOULD IT AFFECT YOUR PLAY? BE HONEST!

What type of shorts are we talking about? I recall a female player wearing cut-off jeans that were skimpier than a pair of erotic panties (not to mention a very light tank-top). A few men did in fact make remarks (a couple of women too), many at least glared at her, and she came to me to complain about it. I do not recall being particularly sympathetic.

Now, I am not absolutely certain about this, but I do seem to remember an article in En Passant from my times at the CFC wherein Todd Southam commented upon males, or perhaps one male, being distracted by the provocative apparel of a female player.

[Brad Thomson]

What about females who play males at chess and deliberately dress provocatively and try to distract the male from the board, hoping to entice a blunder and win the game? Are they scumbags?

No, they are hose-bags.

[Peter McKillop]

Be back later to add my comments.

Some thoughts on your thoughts:

re: #1
It is fine if someone doesn't care about a particular topic. But if they do care, and they decide not to read a post on that topic just because it is arbitrarily too long, they are too lazy to contribute to the discussion anyway.
Also, regarding overthinking, apparently chess has a problem vis-a-vis the treatment of females by males. Apparently not enough males in chess are doing enough thinking on this problem, so if I am overthinking, maybe that is compensating for the general lack of thinking. At any rate, this accusation of overthinking is too vague to really respond to, it would be better of you could respond to the points I bring up. Saying someone is overthinking is a coward's way out.

re: #2
it's not Melania Trump they should care about, it's the widespread acceptance of her rationalization.

re: #3
I think here you are opining on behalf of all decent human beings that indeed at a chess tournament, boys will be boys, and only if it results in sexual assault would there be a problem, therefore the females should just get used to it. But at the same time, you consider boys who will be boys to be scumbags... or are they only scumbags if they commit sexual assault?

re: #4
Oooops, I should have wrote "nearly all".

And ok, there is one other possibility. Rather than accepting Melania's rationalization, maybe nearly all of the female Trump supporters are actually "ok" with sexual assault by men against women or at the very least put it very low on their list of grievances with current society. I did mention that in an earlier post, that it seems a large contingent of women seem to admire men to are dominating towards women ... a "man's man" is usually how that is expressed I think. A grown-up way of saying boys will be boys, perhaps. Oh, sorry, am I overthinking?

.....

One thing I do remember is from years ago, I read an article somewhere that there were a lot of lesbians in women's tennis, and many of these lesbians were acting like scumbags to the straight women on the tour. Don't know if that is still happening.

[Pargat Perrer]

Some thoughts:
1. You have a tendency to overthink things which in turn results in long posts. Maybe there are people here who don't bother with long posts. Just my opinion, of course.
2. Maybe there are some (a lot of?) people at Chesstalk who are totally bored by Melania Trump and couldn't care less what she thinks about anything.
3. Of course 'boys will be boys' is not an acceptable excuse for sexual assault. But surely for any decent human being (which I hope includes everyone at Chesstalk) that statement is a truism; i.e. it doesn't get people worked up enough to trigger a response.
4. All the female Trump supporters in the 2020 election accepted the boys-will-be-boys rationalization for Trump's bad behaviour??? Pargat, get serious! :)

Some thoughts on your thoughts:

re: #1
It is fine if someone doesn't care about a particular topic. But if they do care, and they decide not to read a post on that topic just because it is arbitrarily too long, they are too lazy to contribute to the discussion anyway.
Also, regarding overthinking, apparently chess has a problem vis-a-vis the treatment of females by males. Apparently not enough males in chess are doing enough thinking on this problem, so if I am overthinking, maybe that is compensating for the general lack of thinking. At any rate, this accusation of overthinking is too vague to really respond to, it would be better of you could respond to the points I bring up. Saying someone is overthinking is a coward's way out.

re: #2
it's not Melania Trump they should care about, it's the widespread acceptance of her rationalization.

re: #3
I think here you are opining on behalf of all decent human beings that indeed at a chess tournament, boys will be boys, and only if it results in sexual assault would there be a problem, therefore the females should just get used to it. But at the same time, you consider boys who will be boys to be scumbags... or are they only scumbags if they commit sexual assault?

re: #4
Oooops, I should have wrote "nearly all".

And ok, there is one other possibility. Rather than accepting Melania's rationalization, maybe nearly all of the female Trump supporters are actually "ok" with sexual assault by men against women or at the very least put it very low on their list of grievances with current society. I did mention that in an earlier post, that it seems a large contingent of women seem to admire men to are dominating towards women ... a "man's man" is usually how that is expressed I think. A grown-up way of saying boys will be boys, perhaps. Oh, sorry, am I overthinking?

[Peter McKillop]

I find it strange and even disturbing.... there is a debate as to the effect of the statement "you throw like a girl" when no one is talking about the statement I brought up twice here, the statement by Melania Trump that "boys will be boys" to EXCUSE SEXUAL ASSAULT BY MEN AGAINST WOMEN .... a rationalization that was apparently accepted as suitable by all the female Trump supporters in the 2020 election!

So I must ask.... if there is such a sexual assault at a chess tournament, can the organizers just say "boys will be boys" and leave it at that?

Here's a few tweets from the daughter of Pia Cramling:

@AnnaCramling
Jan 14, 2022
Many are saying that if women wanted to play chess, they would.
Let me ask you this: how would you feel at age of 15, if a male arbiter (50 y.o) told you that you’re not allowed to walk around the open section bc you’re wearing shorts and therefore disturbing the male players?

@AnnaCramling
This happened to me at a very important championship, and it made me feel sad and embarassed for simply wearing shorts when it was 40C outside. We need to make chess a better environment for girls and women in general, to make the ones that do wanna play chess, stay.

There is 2 things to consider here. First, let me ask all the male ChessTalk readers here: If you witness female players walking around in shorts at a chess tournament while you are playing a game, WOULD IT AFFECT YOUR PLAY? BE HONEST!

The second thing is that it should be quite natural for a female to wear shorts at a chess tournament if she so desires.

What does this mean? Earlier I brought up the idea that a lone female who walks into a bar to have a few drinks should know what to expect: not sexual assault, but certainly some minor level of sexual harassment. Should it be the case that a female who walks around in shorts at a chess tournament should expect nearly the same treatment?

I think I am (somewhat regretfully) realizing that chess tournaments, BY THEIR VERY NATURE, are not conducive to intermingling of female and male chess players. Not if a total absence of typical male behavior towards females in a bar is to be expected. For one thing, you can't really police that. And for another, the females probably ARE affecting in a negative way the play of the males.

Of course, then the question can be extended.... should there be female spectators walking around in shorts at a chess tournament? (sigh)
Well, at least then all the male players are dealing with the same problem.

Or.... if you have gay male players in the tournament, should males (whether spectators or players) be wearing shorts at a chess tournament? (sigh)

This all suggests a case for a dress code. But do we want to seem like the Taliban?

I wonder though .... should we make the case that women who play in chess tournaments with both male and female players, like women who go alone into a bar, should just expect some minor level of sexual harassment, and live with it? I'm not promoting that idea, I'm only asking the question.

Some thoughts:
1. You have a tendency to overthink things which in turn results in long posts. Maybe there are people here who don't bother with long posts. Just my opinion, of course.
2. Maybe there are some (a lot of?) people at Chesstalk who are totally bored by Melania Trump and couldn't care less what she thinks about anything.
3. Of course 'boys will be boys' is not an acceptable excuse for sexual assault. But surely for any decent human being (which I hope includes everyone at Chesstalk) that statement is a truism; i.e. it doesn't get people worked up enough to trigger a response.
4. All the female Trump supporters in the 2020 election accepted the boys-will-be-boys rationalization for Trump's bad behaviour??? Pargat, get serious! :)

[Pargat Perrer]

I find it strange and even disturbing.... there is a debate as to the effect of the statement "you throw like a girl" when no one is talking about the statement I brought up twice here, the statement by Melania Trump that "boys will be boys" to EXCUSE SEXUAL ASSAULT BY MEN AGAINST WOMEN .... a rationalization that was apparently accepted as suitable by all the female Trump supporters in the 2020 election!

So I must ask.... if there is such a sexual assault at a chess tournament, can the organizers just say "boys will be boys" and leave it at that?

Here's a few tweets from the daughter of Pia Cramling:

@AnnaCramling
Jan 14, 2022
Many are saying that if women wanted to play chess, they would.
Let me ask you this: how would you feel at age of 15, if a male arbiter (50 y.o) told you that you’re not allowed to walk around the open section bc you’re wearing shorts and therefore disturbing the male players?

@AnnaCramling
This happened to me at a very important championship, and it made me feel sad and embarassed for simply wearing shorts when it was 40C outside. We need to make chess a better environment for girls and women in general, to make the ones that do wanna play chess, stay.

There is 2 things to consider here. First, let me ask all the male ChessTalk readers here: If you witness female players walking around in shorts at a chess tournament while you are playing a game, WOULD IT AFFECT YOUR PLAY? BE HONEST!

The second thing is that it should be quite natural for a female to wear shorts at a chess tournament if she so desires.

What does this mean? Earlier I brought up the idea that a lone female who walks into a bar to have a few drinks should know what to expect: not sexual assault, but certainly some minor level of sexual harassment. Should it be the case that a female who walks around in shorts at a chess tournament should expect nearly the same treatment?

I think I am (somewhat regretfully) realizing that chess tournaments, BY THEIR VERY NATURE, are not conducive to intermingling of female and male chess players. Not if a total absence of typical male behavior towards females in a bar is to be expected. For one thing, you can't really police that. And for another, the females probably ARE affecting in a negative way the play of the males.

Of course, then the question can be extended.... should there be female spectators walking around in shorts at a chess tournament? (sigh)
Well, at least then all the male players are dealing with the same problem.

Or.... if you have gay male players in the tournament, should males (whether spectators or players) be wearing shorts at a chess tournament? (sigh)

This all suggests a case for a dress code. But do we want to seem like the Taliban?

I wonder though .... should we make the case that women who play in chess tournaments with both male and female players, like women who go alone into a bar, should just expect some minor level of sexual harassment, and live with it? I'm not promoting that idea, I'm only asking the question.