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Noah's ark and Sodom still do not add up to millions. Both were relatively early in history.
As so often Vlad tries to change history. Now, when Adam and Eve were in the garden, so the bible tells us, they were immortal. And when Eve "sinned" by eating a certain fruit, god pronounced a death sentence not only on Adam and Eve, but each and every one of their descendants. Each and every one of the billions of people who have lived since that time are under the sentence of death from Yahweh. That makes Yahweh the greatest mass murder in history for he is directly responsible, according to the bible, for the death of everyone else ever after. Because, also according to the bible, Yahweh could have kept every human being totally free from death just as Adam and Eve were, according to the bible.
But, even if he didn't kill millions (and according to geology there actually were many millions of people living on earth about the time these events were supposed to have happened), that means only that Hitler and Stalin were more efficient mass murderers than Yahweh. That doesn't mean he isn't a mass murderer, it means he is a less efficient one.
Boy, that's some defence, eh? Please don't judge me guilty your honor, I only killed five thousand, wheras Stalin, Hitler, and Mao killed many more. So you should let me off.
Vlad's defence to the biblical evidence that God is depicted there as a mass murderer is "yeah, but not the worst one". How do you think that would go over in a court of law?
Last edited by Ed Seedhouse; Monday, 23rd August, 2010, 11:26 PM.
Stalin is quoted as saying "You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" in E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin, Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940 http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki..._an_atheist%3F
Christian writer Dinesh D'Souza writes that "The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_atheism
"And if the cowherd who lives on a star asks about the GOD of plagues, tell him, happy or sad, the GOD is gone, washed away in the waters." - Mao
Our GOD is none other than the masses of the Chinese people. - Mao
"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)
"Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted..." - Hitler
Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953). I have lifted the text of these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)
27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)
Given that most of the quotes regarding Hitler being a Christian coming from speeches where he was trying to garner support from the German masses and quotes regarding Hitler being an atheist come from his private writings I would have to go with Hitler the atheist.
By your definition of what makes these people theists then I suppose that you yourself are still a theist because you were once a catholic. :p
More than 60 million people have been murdered on the altar of atheism. AGW is just another fraud to advance this same agenda.
So you never read the story of Noah's ark, eh? Who sent the fire down upon Sodom, the amazing Randi?
Apparently you don't have such a good memory. Now I have read it from cover to cover at least twice, and God is involved in many many deaths. In fact if you believe the plain words of the New testament he stood by and allowed the death of his Son under torture.
But he looooooooves us all...
Noah's ark and Sodom still do not add up to millions. Both were relatively early in history.
Hitler killed six million. Stalin may have killed 20 million. Pol Pot killed about a million. Mao may be up in Stalin's territory and perhaps well beyond. Estimates of 60 million killed by communists alone in the 20th century are offered by some analysts.
The atheists have God and most religions beat by a wide margin on the mayhem meter.
I cannot pretend to understand everything in the Bible. That's why I keep reading it. I know that you can't judge God's actions or inactions by human standards. We don't see the big picture. He does. He loves us all. I don't understand how he can love you but he does. I have had two of the four religious studies courses which largely dealt with theodicy on an undergrad and graduate level so I have been through all the arguments.
So you never read the story of Noah's ark, eh? Who sent the fire down upon Sodom, the amazing Randi?
Apparently you don't have such a good memory. Now I have read it from cover to cover at least twice, and God is involved in many many deaths. In fact if you believe the plain words of the New testament he stood by and allowed the death of his Son under torture.
But he looooooooves us all...
I'm not sure if you are familiar(I'm going to guess you are he is the greatest comedian of all time) with George Carlin but he has some hilarious jokes about God
Perhaps you should actually read the Bible from cover to cover a number of times and not trust Dawkins Cliff Notes version. I don't recall God killing millions in any translation that I have read. Further that would still put Him well behind the death toll of the atheists in the 20th century. I know some anti-God writers try to use some sleight of hand and claim that the communists and fascists were not atheists but no educated person would actually swallow that malarkey.
oh you picked a rather popular argument(if it can even be called that), about how many people non-believers have killed, while even if you can prove some of the mass murderers in history were atheists, it would still be a fraction of the number committed by the faithful in religious wars, and religious genocides)
Well I believe the best way to battle scripture is too quote it so,
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
another good quote,
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
Nice guy, eh?
but evilbible.com has all the quotes you could want from the bible showing a different side of God then the one that is preached in churches. It has pages and pages of quotes from the so-called inerrant word of God.
and before I was an atheist I was a devout Roman Catholic and I have read the bible several times and I don't think i'd want to get my morals from such a book.
Please tell me of these atheists? Pol Pot, he was a buddhist(didn't believe in God but believed in Heaven), Hitler was a roman catholic("... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. from mein Kampf), Stalin positions is controversial I've heard him both be called atheist, deist and also just a communist(which apparently is a form of a state religion, Bill Maher talks about that). Mao Zedong was influenced by Taoism and has plenty of quotes that go along with a Taoist line of thought.
But even if there were some horrible people who were atheists that wouldn't really prove anything, I don't believe all religious people are evil, because of what their ancestors did (Catholicism for example has been a part of, the Spanish inquisition, crusades, genocide of rival sects, etc...), slightly deluded but not evil. Plus there is no dogma in atheism, the only thing that is similar between them is their lack of belief in God. Saying all atheists are bad because of example X, would be like saying everyone with a mustache is evil because of Hitler and Stalin.
Last edited by Adam Cormier; Monday, 23rd August, 2010, 10:13 PM.
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