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I think "communism" in the USSR and China were really just religions in disguise anyway. They show all the signs of being religions as soon as the cults of personality show up.
Marx's view of what communism and socialism were is really quite different than their subsequent expressions in states that claimed to follow his ideas. I think Marx was mostly wrong, but to give him some fairness his theories were never actually tried out, and both the USSR and "Communist" China are best described, IMO, as slight variations on facism.
On the other hand I hold no belief that Athiests in absolute power would necessarily be responsible for fewer deaths than the various religious absolute rulers. I think the problem is not the religions of absolute rulers, but the fact that they are absolute rulers in the first place.
Bill Maher also talked about how communism was a state-mandatory religion.
I absolutely agree false communism is so similar to fascism you could suggest it is a sub-variation of fascism.
Karl Marx's true communism has never been tried and until it is we won't know if it will work or not.
Atheists or theists both have the same ability to kill as any other human, its really about the reasons why they killed then the person themselves, power corrupts the mind.
Last edited by Adam Cormier; Wednesday, 25th August, 2010, 03:48 PM.
i haven't gone to church since high school, but i'm tempted to follow Pascal's wager...
"If God does not exist, one will lose nothing by believing in him, while if he does exist, one will lose everything by not believing."
I agree about Muse BTW
Pascal's wager makes some outrageous claims, it believes that God rewards belief not good deeds, the atheist's wager which Dawkins has used on occasion makes more sense. Pascal's wager makes God out to be rather vain in that the only way to get into heaven is too believe in him. Good actions and how you live your life would be more sensible criteria for salvation then blind faith/belief. So religion is pointless, because every human should have the ability to be good without being told to do so(a.k.a. common good) unless you believe humans are naturally evil(which goes against evolutionary theory anyways because tribe mentality suggests we do care about our fellow man).
Also about Pascal's wager, Homer Simpson makes an actual intelligent statement, "what if every week we're praying to the wrong God and the real one is just getting madder and madder". So believing can lead to the same % of salvation as not believing, it should be the life of the person that comes into context for God if he exists.
I'm glad there is someone else who appreciates Muse:).
Last edited by Adam Cormier; Wednesday, 25th August, 2010, 03:18 PM.
I'm the only one who has said I'm an atheist, you are making assumptions about Ed and Paul. Ed Seedhouse could also be more of an agnostic or just a skeptic rather then an atheist.
I am neither a believer, nor an athiest, nor an agnostic. What I am doesn't fit into any of these catagories, and I feel no need to name it.
"If God does not exist, one will lose nothing by believing in him, while if he does exist, one will lose everything by not believing."
But if it turns our the One True God is, say, Zeus and you chose Yaheweh you would likely be even worse off. There are dozens or hundreds of gods, which one will you pick?
If the one true God turns out to be the one the muslims believe in, then your belief in Christ might not help you much.
Falling for "Pascal's Wager" is a sign of insufficient ability to think clearly.
He viewed religion as a threat to his power which is why he abolished it. The mass murderers were power hungry monsters, they killed for many reasons but not atheism.
I think "communism" in the USSR and China were really just religions in disguise anyway. They show all the signs of being religions as soon as the cults of personality show up.
Marx's view of what communism and socialism were is really quite different than their subsequent expressions in states that claimed to follow his ideas. I think Marx was mostly wrong, but to give him some fairness his theories were never actually tried out, and both the USSR and "Communist" China are best described, IMO, as slight variations on facism.
On the other hand I hold no belief that Athiests in absolute power would necessarily be responsible for fewer deaths than the various religious absolute rulers. I think the problem is not the religions of absolute rulers, but the fact that they are absolute rulers in the first place.
Are there any people with religious beliefs (aside from the AGW Gaians) who believe that AGW is not a scam? So far all of the most vocal AGW supporters on Chesstalk have revealed that they are atheists. That is an interesting statistic.
I'm the only one who has said I'm an atheist, you are making assumptions about Ed and Paul. Ed Seedhouse could also be more of an agnostic or just a skeptic rather then an atheist like myself(although he could be). Paul Beckwith had made no statement on his religious beliefs and has not taken part of the small side debate over religion.
Also I'm sure there are plenty of religious people who have seen the facts for AGW and found it to be true. One of my friends is an atheist and he doesn't trust scientists and doesn't trust AGW to be true. There is clearly diversity on this topic, but most atheists are most likely going to be on the side of scientists because they are more informed on science then the religious.
I should believe an atheist and disbelieve the private record of Hitler's thought. Hitler was a master manipulator who used the German's beliefs to enhance his power. If they believed in God he made himself appear to believe with them. You can try to rewrite history all you want but a few internet quotes do not overcome a mountain of historical writings.
It is a religion. Science is one of its gods. The scientists are its high priests and its minor gods. Gore is one of its false prophets.
A lot of nonsense was spouted. I don't have time to refute every idiotic statement from every fuzzy thinking atheist that you quote. I had been warned to expect it from what I read in "How Evil Works" but I didn't expect to encounter it so quickly.
You need to grow up and get an education and you won't be impressed by nonsensical arguments and laughable credentials. Go out and get involved in some actual research that gets published and you won't have as much reverence for it. Better yet take some courses in philosophy and expand your mind.
I never said they killed for atheism and that is how the author of that piece throws a red herring at you which you swallow along with the embedded hook, line and sinker. Their atheism is what allowed them to kill all those people. They were amoral sociopaths whose pathology was deeply rooted in their belief system.
Why would Stalin want to kill an ally?
You already said it but who died and made you an authority? Not all religions believe in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.
The UN.
You are wrong about their sanity at least from what I recall of my abnormal psychology classes. Those classes really come in handy when dealing with some of the AGW apologists like Ed.
It can never be achieved because humans are not built that way.
I don't have to question yours. Your fuzzy thought has revealed it. Hopefully you will get a good education and grow out of it and stop being such a hero worshipping follower.
As a matter of fact it has everything to do with their religion and the way the priests who committed such evil acts were sheltered and protected by the leadership of the Catholic Church.
Not controversial at all.
You guys started this nonsense about all the people killed in the name of Christianity and how enlightened atheists are. The fact is, atheists are the authors of most of the major genocides of the 20th century so many atheists are not terribly enlightened:).
Atheists are misguided. I never said that all atheists are evil. For that to be untrue I would only have to find one who wasn't evil. I know lots of atheists who are not evil. They also manage to avoid the fuzzy thinking that you and most of the representatives of atheism on chess talk seem to exhibit.
I've actually met a couple climatologists and they aren't fans of Al Gore(I don't think many are, he makes some serious stupid mistakes in his video), so the AGW religion doesn't work like you think it does.
"How Evil Works" by David Kupelian, I can't stand any of the authors you bring up. David Kupelian is really similar to an apocalyptic end-time religious wacko, claiming that America is being destroyed just because the right didn't win, he needs to calm down. fearing everything and everyone who is different from who he is.
I wouldn't get your facts from someone like David Kupelian, who believes America was founded on core judeo-Christian values, nothing could be father from the truth. He might not realize this but the party of NO(Republicans) is really one of the worse parties in existence right now, they actually rejected health care for 9/11 first responders, leftists are the least of America's worries. He is right about one thing the rise of Atheism would shock previous generations because the whole world was basically brainwashed by their religion. He also seems to be a supporter of ID, I would distance myself from such persons. He also seems to have some problems with homosexuals, he seems to be the average member of the Christian-right(which is not a good thing).
"Maybe our leaders would be more hesitant to go to war, if they didn't believe their soldiers went to heaven"- can't remember
Telling me to get an education is actually quite similar to saying, go be a liberal(which you obviously don't want to happen), because liberals are on average more educated then their conservative counterparts, don't worry about my education I plan to become a university professor.
Satoshi Kanazawa, Ph.D: That is the conclusion of my latest study because being liberal is evolutionarily novel. In a sense, humans are designed to be conservative and it’s unnatural for humans to be liberal, being concerned about the welfare of millions of genetically unrelated other people. So more intelligent people are more likely to acquire unnatural preferences and values and being a liberal is one of them and as a result more intelligent people tend to be more liberal than less intelligent people.
His studies have also found that approximately 90% of scientists identify themselves as liberals.
I plan to take a philosophy course in university, plus I already watch a lot pf lectures from Philosopher Dan C. Dennett as well as many other university professors.
You have to stop referring to atheism as a religion/belief system, it isn't. There is no dogma, no superstition, atheists in general are freethinkers, secular humanists, and rationalists, logical empiricists, existentialists, skeptics, nihilists, all different kinds. Calling Atheism a belief system/religion is the same as calling bald a hair colour, or black(which is defined by physicists as the complete absence of colour) a colour. Some atheists don't even believe in evolution and are not scientifically informed.
Hitler would have still killed millions(his Christian upbringing was the catalyst for the holocaust, the Roman Catholic church had an anti-Semitic doctrine until the mid 1960s, but even if that was not his upbringing he would have used a possibly different scapegoat to obtain more power) no matter what religion he was, Stalin would have still killed millions no matter what religion he was, Mao would have killed millions no matter what religion he was(he was a Taoist).
So according to you the only reason these murderers killed was their atheism(or atleast it enabled them to do that), I go to a religious school currently, and even they don't teach that(which I'd assume they would because of the superiority of religious beliefs over atheism, apparently). I had a history course last year about WW2 and atheism was never brought up as one of the causes of WW2 or the holocaust.
Also what about WW1, a lot of people died in that war and i don't think any of the leaders were non-religious(or atleast most of them were religious) so what allowed them to kill if it wasn't atheism? I don't know what happened but you have obtained some really bad idea from some fundamentalists(probably David Kupelian) to actually believe some of this stuff that makes absolutely no sense. Atheists are not bound to any common ideology or belief contrary to Bill O'reilly and Ann Coulter would have you believe.
Well most Christians make Stalin out to be this atheist who just wants to destroy religious people for the sake of destroying religion, but that obviously wasn't true because he taught his own daughter about Christ. He wanted to get rid of religion for power reasons not atheistic ones.
Humans might not be built that way, but we can adapt to changes(I thought you already believed this).
Hero worshipping follower? I plan to surpass Dawkins, and become a voice of atheism. I want to watch religion vanish, as scientific discovery advances further and further. Your the one who is following lunatics, such as David Kupelian...what a nutcase(How can you take him seriously? It's similar to taking Ben Stein seriously).
I was talking about the ACTS themselves(and what made them do it in the first place) not the aftermath(the sheltering and lying for example) you are talking about something completely different. But hopefully Dawkins and Hitchens succeed in arresting the Pope(Hitchens might be dead before that happens though).
You're right it isn't controversial at all if you completely ignore the other side of the argument...good job.
I still disagree with you, Hitler had quotes both ways, Stalin taught his own daughter about Christ, Mao Zedong was a Taoist, nothing really hard hitting for either side.
Atheists are misguided? The Religious are the ones who believe in a fairy-tale. Religion is a crutch for man-kind for those who are so afraid of the unknown they make up any story imaginable to try to answer questions and then will never let these answers be questioned.
"Philosophy is a question that may never be answered, Religion is an answer that may never be questioned".-not sure
You do realize the side most opposed to AGW is the religious fundamentalists, Vlad? Because God's perfect world can't be effected by human activities...complete garbage, always remember that's the side you are on.
Last edited by Adam Cormier; Wednesday, 25th August, 2010, 02:19 PM.
Reason: added more info...
It was actually a political comment regarding funding.
Of course it would be but I think improved funding would come much too late in Ed's Case.
Tonight, I went to get a hair cut. Some guy was spouting off about how the current Mayor of Windsor was going to lose the coming election. I think that he is going to win with a 70% or better majority. They did find someone with name recognition to run against him but I think that it is going to be no contest. The woman cutting his hair was agreeing with everything he said though there was little enthusiasm in her voice.
He also mentioned that the Mayor's house got spray paint bombed by his friend who was one of the garbage men that was going to be laid off by the city due to outsourcing of garbage pickup. He did a lot of chuckling about that. Terrorist.
Are there any people with religious beliefs (aside from the AGW Gaians) who believe that AGW is not a scam? So far all of the most vocal AGW supporters on Chesstalk have revealed that they are atheists. That is an interesting statistic.
First of all you keep on calling Hitler an atheist, but there is a lot of contradictory evidence that you won't even acknowledge as well as the writer of the article you got all your quotes for didn't even believe Hitler was an atheist.
I should believe an atheist and disbelieve the private record of Hitler's thought. Hitler was a master manipulator who used the German's beliefs to enhance his power. If they believed in God he made himself appear to believe with them. You can try to rewrite history all you want but a few internet quotes do not overcome a mountain of historical writings.
AGW isn't religion it is science, their is no deity in AGW, no myth or superstition just facts and evidence, you can ignore them but it doesn't mean the facts will go away.
It is a religion. Science is one of its gods. The scientists are its high priests and its minor gods. Gore is one of its false prophets.
Did you even read the article about why atheism hasn't killed people, probably not because it contains too much facts and evidence(proving my argument)...you didn't make a point contradicting it at all you just quoted it...
A lot of nonsense was spouted. I don't have time to refute every idiotic statement from every fuzzy thinking atheist that you quote. I had been warned to expect it from what I read in "How Evil Works" but I didn't expect to encounter it so quickly.
You need to grow up and get an education and you won't be impressed by nonsensical arguments and laughable credentials. Go out and get involved in some actual research that gets published and you won't have as much reverence for it. Better yet take some courses in philosophy and expand your mind.
Yeah Hewlett Johnson did support the soviet union, but so did many people living inside it at the time. Stalin being the anti-theist that he is should have killed Reverend Hewlett Johnson for his religious beliefs, but no Stalin's killing weren't about religion, they were about power and people supporting his power(or people not supporting his power). He viewed religion as a threat to his power which is why he abolished it. The mass murderers were power hungry monsters, they killed for many reasons but not atheism.
I never said they killed for atheism and that is how the author of that piece throws a red herring at you which you swallow along with the embedded hook, line and sinker. Their atheism is what allowed them to kill all those people. They were amoral sociopaths whose pathology was deeply rooted in their belief system.
Why would Stalin want to kill an ally?
As I already said AGW is not a religion
definitions for religion:
# a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny;
You already said it but who died and made you an authority? Not all religions believe in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.
"he lost his faith but not his morality"
# an institution to express belief in a divine power;
The UN.
First of all, these mass murderers were obviously insane and their religious can't truly be known because they were constantly contradicting themselves, shifting their ideals on issues, and some time just flat-out lying.
You are wrong about their sanity at least from what I recall of my abnormal psychology classes. Those classes really come in handy when dealing with some of the AGW apologists like Ed.
Communism as written in Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto has never actually been achieved, it is supposed to be a utopia without a government, not a fascist dictator.
It can never be achieved because humans are not built that way.
The fundamentalists who claim that the bible is historically accurate and the inerrant word of God should realize that they don't want the bible to be true or else millions and millions of people are dead because of their all-loving God.
People have killed millions upon millions in the name of God, or religion.
This is when I really have to question your intelligence,
I don't have to question yours. Your fuzzy thought has revealed it. Hopefully you will get a good education and grow out of it and stop being such a hero worshipping follower.
And it doesn't matter what their religious beliefs are, the person is evil, but not because of their atheism. Do you claim the child molesting priests are evil because of their religion? No they are evil because they are sick and perverted having nothing to do with their religion.
As a matter of fact it has everything to do with their religion and the way the priests who committed such evil acts were sheltered and protected by the leadership of the Catholic Church.
So all you are saying is that there were atheists(controversial) that killed a bunch of people,
Not controversial at all.
You guys started this nonsense about all the people killed in the name of Christianity and how enlightened atheists are. The fact is, atheists are the authors of most of the major genocides of the 20th century so many atheists are not terribly enlightened:).
so therefore(using Vlad's flawed logic) all atheism is evil and therefore all atheists are evil. I could use the same logic in religious beliefs, but it is completely logically fallacious.
Atheists are misguided. I never said that all atheists are evil. For that to be untrue I would only have to find one who wasn't evil. I know lots of atheists who are not evil. They also manage to avoid the fuzzy thinking that you and most of the representatives of atheism on chess talk seem to exhibit.
Not unlike the cult of AGW and the useful idiots who apologized for and extolled the communistic ideals as millions were being murdered.
Hitler was influenced by the writings of Nietzche who would have been horrified had he lived to see what the Nazis did with his philosophical and poetic writings. Hitler was a consumate liar and a murderer and an atheist with some pagan themes piped in as background music. What he wrote privately about his beliefs is probably more indicative of his state.
The AGW/Gaia religion is an echo of Hitler's themes of Nature and Providence.
Mao's regime killed Taoists in the millions and perhaps tens of millions.
From Wikipedia:
The Very Reverend Hewlett Johnson (25 January 1874 - 22 October 1966), was an English clergyman, Dean of Manchester and later Dean of Canterbury, where he acquired his nickname The Red Dean of Canterbury for his unyielding support for the Soviet Union and its allies.
Adam if you don't want me to consign you to the Ed Seedhouse category of mindless lefties incapable of independent thought, you really need to stop giving such bad examples to prove your points.
I am not defending God. He needs no defense from a wretch like myself. I am not defending religion because I object to most religions as they like the leeches precipitating around AGW. That is one of my objections to all of the nonsense associated with the silly theory of AGW. It is a religion.
They always did know how to reward the "useful idiots" as they called them.
If you read what they wrote and said then it is clear that they were atheists. Later, when it became clear that communism was a failed experiment, some of them may have faltered.
So let me get this straight. God who you claim is a fictional character is bad because he killed all these people that he didn't really kill since he doesn't exist according to you.
The atheists who killed some 65 million people or more in the 20th century are okay because they didn't kill for atheism but for other reasons. Those 65 million people are still dead whatever the atheists motivations. Their atheistic beliefs allowed them to undertake such genocides.
First of all you keep on calling Hitler an atheist, but there is a lot of contradictory evidence that you won't even acknowledge as well as the writer of the article you got all your quotes for didn't even believe Hitler was an atheist.
AGW isn't religion it is science, their is no deity in AGW, no myth or superstition just facts and evidence, you can ignore them but it doesn't mean the facts will go away.
Mao really didn't care who he killed he wanted power, since a large percentage of China's population was taoist obviously many of them were killed, do you really believed he didn't kill atheists as well? Using your line of thinking he couldn't be an atheist because he killed them. Christians killed other sects of Christianity in religious wars does that suddenly make them not Christians? No, that is illogical as is your supposed way of thought.
Did you even read the article about why atheism hasn't killed people, probably not because it contains too much facts and evidence(proving my argument)...you didn't make a point contradicting it at all you just quoted it...
Yeah Hewlett Johnson did support the soviet union, but so did many people living inside it at the time. Stalin being the anti-theist that he is should have killed Reverend Hewlett Johnson for his religious beliefs, but no Stalin's killing weren't about religion, they were about power and people supporting his power(or people not supporting his power). He viewed religion as a threat to his power which is why he abolished it. The mass murderers were power hungry monsters, they killed for many reasons but not atheism.
Actually many people object to every other religion besides their own, some of us just take it one religion further(switch God for religion and it works just the same).
As I already said AGW is not a religion
definitions for religion:
# a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
# an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
AGW is nothing like that...
Everyone not just the religious were tools too Stalin for him too gain more power and control over the U.S.S.R. and it's people.
First of all, these mass murderers were obviously insane and their religious can't truly be known because they were constantly contradicting themselves, shifting their ideals on issues, and some time just flat-out lying.
Communism as written in Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto has never actually been achieved, it is supposed to be a utopia without a government, not a fascist dictator.
The fundamentalists who claim that the bible is historically accurate and the inerrant word of God should realize that they don't want the bible to be true or else millions and millions of people are dead because of their all-loving God.
People have killed millions upon millions in the name of God, or religion.
This is when I really have to question your intelligence,
'atheistic beliefs'?? NO SUCH THING EXISTS, atheists aren't making a claim they are rejecting someone elses. If someone walks up to you claiming they have a milk carton and then you seeing they don't, say no you don't that isn't a belief that is a fact(replace milk carton with imaginary friend, a.k.a. God and the atheists position is easy to understand).
The only one that has the most evidence for his atheism with the least amount of contradictory evidence is Stalin, all the others are controversial(even Stalin is a bit controversial).
And it doesn't matter what their religious beliefs are, the person is evil, but not because of their atheism. Do you claim the child molesting priests are evil because of their religion? No they are evil because they are sick and perverted having nothing to do with their religion.
So yes these 'atheists' as you call them were bad people, but I'm willing to wager that the religious have also killed plenty in their religious wars, etc...
No one is smashing airplanes into skyscrapers for Richard Dawkins(9/11), or going on a holy crusade over Christopher Hitchens(The religious Crusades), or punishing the savages for not accepting Sam Harris into their life(The Spanish inquisition) or slaughtering your ex-friends for slightly different beliefs(Christian genocides)
All those killed in religious wars are still dead even though they died in the name of God.
So all you are saying is that there were atheists(controversial) that killed a bunch of people, so therefore(using Vlad's flawed logic) all atheism is evil and therefore all atheists are evil. I could use the same logic in religious beliefs, but it is completely logically fallacious.
Last edited by Adam Cormier; Tuesday, 24th August, 2010, 10:30 PM.
Reason: spelling error
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