CYCC 2011 voting result

[Bob Armstrong]

When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

Hi Peter:

I think the problem here is that it is impossible to define how close to an organizing committee for a bid, a governor must be, to have to declare a conflict of interest. If a governor is on an organizing committee, then he may have a conflict of interest if he gets any pecuniary or equivalent benefit from the bidders being awarded the tournament ( or are you saying he has to declare a conflict just because he is solely on the organizing committee? ).

But if the governor is only " helping " or " supporting ", then is he in conflict? Roger seems to say that's impossible.

Does this then mean that no bidder can speak to any governor without that governor becoming tainted ( it may give the " appearance " of support ), and the bidders being then deprived of that vote, because that governor would have to declare a " conflict of interest " and not vote? I think this is what Roger is getting at when he refers to bidders being deprived of governors' votes.

I think we have to let governors help and suppport bidders, and even be on the organizing committees. The issue is whether they get any pecuniary or equivalent benefit by voting for their own team, and it winning.

Bob

[Peter McKillop]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

... I think the problem here is that it is impossible to define how close to an organizing committee for a bid, a governor must be, to have to declare a conflict of interest. ...

No doubt there will be some gray situations but, with common sense and the guideline noted by Ken MacDonald in another post in this thread, there should be no impossible-to-solve problem here.

... If a governor is on an organizing committee, then he may have a conflict of interest if he gets any pecuniary or equivalent benefit from the bidders being awarded the tournament ( or are you saying he has to declare a conflict just because he is solely on the organizing committee? ). ...

In my view this is the trivial case. If a governor, compensated or otherwise, sits on the organizing committee of a bidder then this is an absolutely clear case of conflict of interest. How can someone who occupies a position on the organizing committee for Bidder A make a credible claim that he can act impartially with respect to bids from Bidders B, C and D vis-a-vis the bid from his own organization?

... But if the governor is only " helping " or " supporting ", then is he in conflict? Roger seems to say that's impossible. ...

If by helping/supporting you mean, for example, that a governor does NOT sit on the bidder's organizing committee but has volunteered to help out with some of the grunt work (tables, chairs, clean up, etc.), then in my view this governor does not have a conflict of interest. The word 'impossible' is being tossed about too much.

... Does this then mean that no bidder can speak to any governor without that governor becoming tainted ...

Of course not. Lobbying is fair game (note that by 'lobbying' I do NOT mean vote rigging). Again, common sense should apply. This isn't hard.

[Fred Harvey]

Re: CYCC 2011 voting result

This whole discussion is another example of the CFC's ability to count the angels on the head of a pin, and totally confuse the issue.

"Conflict of interest" in the usual sense refers specifically to direct potential financial benefit only. It also refers to the "appearance" of a conflict, as pointed out by one sane voice on here.

If people feel that executives or governers are going to driectly benefit financially from any of the bids, then there is a case. Any other "conflict" is only in the minds of whoever is arguing, and has no legal status whatsoever. It will then be up to the CFC to decide as to whether the actions were appropriate.

Normally, the chair will not vote on an issue, other than casting a deciding vote. Really quite simple, and doesn't need constitutions to resolve. For God's sake, you have what, a thousand adult members? Sort it out amongst yourselves, you're a small club!

Seems to me that if someone works for a bid, they have every right to support it....sort of like voting for yourself in an election......

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

If a governor, compensated or otherwise, sits on the organizing committee of a bidder then this is an absolutely clear case of conflict of interest. How can someone who occupies a position on the organizing committee for Bidder A make a credible claim that he can act impartially with respect to bids from Bidders B, C and D vis-a-vis the bid from his own organization?

Hi Peter:

Conflict of interest is based on " financial interest ":

Random House Dictionary:

" Conflict of Interest ": the situation of a public office holder whose private financial interests might benefit from his or her official actions.

It is seems therefore that it is not a mere question of " objectivity " - all deciders have biases and have often been lobbied. It is my position that even officers of CFC on Bid Organizing Committees are not necessarily in " conflict of interst " when they subsequently vote on accepting a bid, or on competing bids, as in the recent 2011 CYCC and 2011 CO cases.

The section 2 of the Handbook, Bylaw 2, s. 15 clearly states:

CONFLICT OF INTEREST

Whenever a proposal is being considered which puts any CFC officer in a potential conflict of interest he shall declare the conflict and abstain from discussion, voting or other involvement in the matter.

Using the dictionary definition, the " potential conflict of interest " is based on " financial interest ".

If a CFC officer on a Bid Organizing Committee is not necessarily in a conflict of interest positon, then neither is an ordinary governor.

Bob

[Yelizaveta Orlova]

Re: CYCC 2011 voting result

This was posted by Bob Gillanders on the CFC board:

Congratulations to Richmond Hill.

I [Bob G.] posted this message from Lyle on the governors board in the wee hours this morning:


Gentlemen, this has been the closest vote in recent CFC history!

Richmond Hill (14) Armstrong, Bond, Brammall, Craft, Gillanders, Haley, Jin, Mallon, Marghetis, McDonald, Moore, Nadeau, Nunes, von Keitz

Toronto (12) Barron, Birarov, I Bluvshtein, M Bluvshtein, Craver, Dutton, Field, Leblanc, McKim, Palsson, Smith, Zeromskis

Abstentions: none

Good luck to the Richmond Hill organizers and I hope they have a great tournament!

Lyle Craver
Secretary, Chess Federation of Canada


ps. The Executive are now exploring a Canadian Open only bid from the Toronto team.

to tell you the truth, cycc and canadian open will be better in toronto (in my opinion)

I have even invited some GMs that i met at the olympiad who might be willing to come and play if its in toronto.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

... Conflict of interest is based on " financial interest ":

Random House Dictionary:

" Conflict of Interest ": the situation of a public office holder whose private financial interests might benefit from his or her official actions.
...

Bob, Random House doesn't have a monopoly on determining meanings. For instance, here is a better definition of 'conflict of interest' from Merriam Webster ("better" because, imo, it is not as narrow as the Random House definition):

Definition of CONFLICT OF INTEREST: a conflict between the private interests and the official responsibilities of a person in a position of trust

... It is seems therefore that it is not a mere question of " objectivity " ...

Bob, with all due respect you seem to be having a lot of trouble coming to grips with this matter. Conflict of interest has ***EVERYTHING*** to do with objectivity.

... The section 2 of the Handbook, Bylaw 2, s. 15 clearly states:

CONFLICT OF INTEREST

Whenever a proposal is being considered which puts any CFC officer in a potential conflict of interest he shall declare the conflict and abstain from discussion, voting or other involvement in the matter.

Using the dictionary definition, the " potential conflict of interest " is based on " financial interest ". ...

Actually, Bob, the handbook does not specifically state that you are to use Random House's narrow definition of conflict of interest, does it?

I have more to say but gotta go. Will return later.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

Hi Peter:

Seems like we may have to agree to disagree on this.

I feel that you are trying to impose a " judicial " standard of conflict of interest, on a " legislative " decider ( CFC governors ). It may be that these are different, I don't know.

I'd love to hear more opinions from others on this difference Peter and I have on this issue.

Bob

[Peter McKillop]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

... I feel that you are trying to impose a " judicial " standard of conflict of interest, on a " legislative " decider ( CFC governors ). It may be that these are different, I don't know. ...

This would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

Sorry - guess it's time to stop discussing it.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: When Might a Governor Be in Conflict?

Sorry - guess it's time to stop discussing it.

Yes indeed.

[Peter McKillop]

One Last Try

Sorry - guess it's time to stop discussing it.

From businessdictionary.com:

conflict of interest

Definitions (2)

1. Situation that has the potential to undermine the impartiality of a person because of the possibility of a clash between the person's self-interest and professional-interest or public-interest.

2. Situation where a party's responsibility to a second-party limits its ability to discharge its responsibility to a third-party.


Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...#ixzz16WVy7n00


Can you understand now, Bob, how a conflict of interest can exist without there necessarily being any money involved? If you're still in the dark then I give up.

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: One Last Try

Hi Peter:

These definitions are certainly broader.

I'll wait to hear what other governors think about this possible limitation on governors becoming involved in bids - I concede your point is definitely arguable ( and perhaps right ).

But I have great difficulty with it on the ground, where bids are few and far between, and governors are supposed to be pro-active in promoting the good of the CFC, especially re bids.

Bob

[Stuart Brammall]

Re: One Last Try

1. Situation that has the potential to undermine the impartiality of a person because of the possibility of a clash between the person's self-interest and professional-interest or public-interest.

It seems to me a persons self-interest should always rest in not organizing a chess event, considering the risks to ones finances and reputation... ;)

[Roger Patterson]

Re: Vote or No Vote for the Chair?

Roger, please consider this hypothetical situation: if you and some friends worked hard to put together a worthy bid (i.e. worthy of fair consideration) to host the CYCC in Victoria, and if your bid was subsequently turned down by the CFC after being defeated by the narrowest of margins by a competing bid, and if you then found out that 2 or more of the people who used their votes to scuttle your bid were closely associated with the competing bid (for example, part of the competitor's organizing committee), would you not at the very least feel that you'd been treated unfairly?



wrote.

No, I wouldn't. And do you think that there is any group of active governors who would not have some history of association with any plausible group of bidders? Our community is not that big nor is there any impropriety in voting for your own bid or those who you know well.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: One Last Try

Hi Peter:

These definitions are certainly broader.

I'll wait to hear what other governors think about this possible limitation on governors becoming involved in bids - I concede your point is definitely arguable ( and perhaps right ).

But I have great difficulty with it on the ground, where bids are few and far between, and governors are supposed to be pro-active in promoting the good of the CFC, especially re bids.

Bob

Do you recognize a difference between a governor and an officer? The bylaw makes references to the officers.