CYCC 2011 voting result

[Gary Ruben]

Re: CYCC 2011 voting result

Objectivity doesn't exist, Peter. Each Governor having a vote unless s/he is in conflict of interest is fair.

I feel like we are going around a mulberry bush.

Let's use an example: Let's say Toronto and Fredericton both put in bids for a Co. The Toronto bid committee consists of all of the Toronto area Governors. The Fredericton bid contains all of the N.B. Governors. All of the Toronto Governors vote for their bid. All of the N.B. Governors vote for their bid. The Toronto bid wins. That is fair.

If the governors are interested in bidding on events, why are the events being put up for open bids from the public or general membership? People are taking time and expense to prepare bids which don't appear to have any chance of being successful.

You might recall the CFC pin which was advertised on Ebay and the listing was posted here on Chess Talk. I ended up with the pin. I wanted to compare it to my gold pin. It kind of reminds me of a time when I liked the CFC more than I like it now. Possibly there were more idealists then and the bylaws are a result of misguided liberal idealism.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: CYCC 2011 voting result

Objectivity doesn't exist...

Thank you for clarifying your position for me.

... Let's use an example: Let's say Toronto and Fredericton both put in bids for a Co. The Toronto bid committee consists of all of the Toronto area Governors. The Fredericton bid contains all of the N.B. Governors. All of the Toronto Governors vote for their bid. All of the N.B. Governors vote for their bid. The Toronto bid wins. That is fair.

It's fair in your opinion but I think there are others, me included, who would like to think that the governors would take the time to examine each bid in detail and that the winning bid would win on the basis of its relative merits rather than on the basis of mindless block voting.

[Tom O'Donnell]

Re: CYCC 2011 voting result

... Alternatively, we could simply say that if you live within 100 (or 250) miles of a nominated location you may not vote. This way only the truly disinvolved people would get to choose. ...

Hi Fred,

You would perhaps get the people most objective, but also the least informed, about any particular bid. I have no love for the CFC, but in this case it seems to me that only people who are clearly financially benefiting from a bid (say making at least $1000) should be prevented from voting. There could also be the case where, say, guys in Alberta give advice to guys in Ontario about how to draw GMs to their events (conditions, contracts, etc.) so putting some sort of geographical restriction seems like it won't solve the problem, assuming there is a problem.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Conflict of Interest Challenges?

... ""Conflict of interest" in the usual sense refers specifically to direct potential financial benefit only. ...

Source of this information?

... Any other "conflict" is only in the minds of whoever is arguing, and has no legal status whatsoever. ...

Source of this information? Are you a lawyer, fred?

[Fred Harvey]

Re: Conflict of Interest Challenges?

The provincial municipal act refers specifically to "pecuniary" interest only when declaring a conflict.

The federal conflict of interest act refers to using ones position, and knowledge gleaned from that position, to benefit the personal interest of self or others.

There are many other examples you could research yourself, but the point is that legally it really has to be a financial or pecuniary benefit to carry any weight. Of course there are many interpretations of conflict in the dictionaries these days, most of which refer to what is really unethical behaviour. The CFC could, and perhaps should, pass by-laws to try to control such behaviour, but such by-laws would carry no ability to impose sanctions for illegal or criminal behaviour. That would be up to the courts, and what I have been trying to say is that the courts would need to see some clearly defined financial benefit.

I believe your opinion takes far too wide a definition for conflict of interest which is not only not supported by reasonable people, but would in fact be a major impediment to an organization already in trouble.

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Conflict of Interest Challenges?

The provincial municipal act refers specifically to "pecuniary" interest only when declaring a conflict. ...

Yes, I saw that when I looked up the act (Municipal Conflict of Interest Act). However, when I went to the Province's e-Laws page and searched current consolidated provincial law for the term 'conflict of interest', I got 1,524 hits spread over 145 Acts. I'm betting that the Province's definition of conflict of interest is not the same throughout all of its current law.

... The federal conflict of interest act refers to using ones position, and knowledge gleaned from that position, to benefit the personal interest of self or others. ...

Yes, but the definition of conflict of interest contained in the federal act you've noted seems quite broad to me; perhaps an indication that government's understanding of COI has been evolving beyond the narrow definition you favour so strongly. For others who might be reading this, here's the definition to which you referred:

PART 1

CONFLICT OF INTEREST RULES

4. For the purposes of this Act, a public
office holder is in a conflict of interest when he
or she exercises an official power, duty or
function that provides an opportunity to further
his or her private interests or those of his or her
relatives or friends or to improperly further
another person’s private interests.

... There are many other examples you could research yourself, but the point is that legally it really has to be a financial or pecuniary benefit to carry any weight. Of course there are many interpretations of conflict in the dictionaries these days, most of which refer to what is really unethical behaviour. The CFC could, and perhaps should, pass by-laws to try to control such behaviour, but such by-laws would carry no ability to impose sanctions for illegal or criminal behaviour. That would be up to the courts, and what I have been trying to say is that the courts would need to see some clearly defined financial benefit. ...

I think you've headed off on the wrong track here, Fred. I'm not talking about criminal behaviour, or illegalities, or sanctions. None of these things are likely to apply. What I've been talking about is this: should a group bidding for the right to organize a CFC fixture event be entitled to the expectation that the CFC will use its best efforts to ensure that a decision is made fairly and objectively? I'm saying that the CFC should set a high ethical standard for the conduct of its business.

... I believe your opinion takes far too wide a definition for conflict of interest which is not only not supported by reasonable people, but would in fact be a major impediment to an organization already in trouble.

Based on 30+ years working in the banking industry, I can't believe that conducting business in an ethical manner would be an impediment to any organization run by honest people.

[Fred Harvey]

Re: Conflict of Interest Challenges?

"I'm betting that the Province's definition of conflict of interest is not the same throughout all of its current law.

Yes, but the definition of conflict of interest contained in the federal act you've noted seems quite broad to me; perhaps an indication that government's understanding of COI has been evolving beyond the narrow definition you favour so strongly. "

You are betting and guessing on the laws! As a recently retired municipal politician, I can assure you that the provincial conflict act is quite universal and consistent. It refers to pecuniary interest only.

Can you not grasp the difference between conflict of interest laws, which I have pointed out are largely irrelevant in this scenario, and the organizations' efforts to legislate ethical behaviour?

IMHO it is impossible to legislate ethical behaviour - if you try you are going to alienate the small group of people that remain useful to the organization. Each situation should be judged on its merits, and most reasonable people will recognize unethical behaviour when they see it, and act accordingly. But don't wrap it into some spurious "conflict of interest" charges.

Once again, I do not see a problem with a governor working on a bid, and voting for it, unless big personal money is involved.

As I believe we are dancing on the head of a pin again, that's it for me!

[Bob Armstrong]

The Perspective of Some Governors on Tournament Bidding

Hi Peter:

I think some ( many? ) CFC governors see the current system of tournament bid voting, with governors free to vote, despite ties to the bidding team ( as long as there is no financial gain ), using the narrow definition of " conflict of interest ", as both ethical ( everything is up front on this ), and politically necessary.

And they see the system as being run by honest people, trying to achieve beneficial goals.

Bob

[Bob Armstrong]

CFC Ethics Committee - Non-Executive Status Update

I would think it best for a non-executive governor to be the Chair of the Ethics Committee. So far, despite the high visibility of this issue on both this CMA Board, and the confidential CFC Governors' Discussion Board, I am not aware that any volunteer governor has yet come forward to volunteer to chair ( despite there being 53 non-executive governors out of 60 ).

The Committee still has one governor member, elected at the CFC Toronto July AGM, GTCL/Ont. Governor Ilia Bluvshtein.

Members of the Committee can be either governors or CFC members. Again, despite the high visibility of this issue on this CMA Board, no CFC member volunteers have yet come forward to my knowledge as a non-executive governor.

As Fred has noted, in the absence of a functioning Ethics Committee, the governors will have to discuss how now to proceed at the upcoming January 2011 Winter On-line Meeting.

Bob

[Peter McKillop]

Re: The Perspective of Some Governors on Tournament Bidding

Hi Peter:

I think some ( many? ) CFC governors see the current system of tournament bid voting, with governors free to vote, despite ties to the bidding team ( as long as there is no financial gain ), using the narrow definition of " conflict of interest ", as both ethical ( everything is up front on this ), and politically necessary.

And they see the system as being run by honest people, trying to achieve beneficial goals.

Bob

Then to be consistent and transparent, I think the CFC should amend the COI section in the Handbook to make the CFC's definition of COI clear to readers. Surely no governor would object to that. If it's going to be a pig then it should be called a pig. Also, if the CFC provides new bidders with materials to assist them in structuring their bids, then the CFC should ensure that those materials contain no misleading comments; e.g. 'winning bids will be selected on the basis of their merits relative to competing bids' would be misleading.

Regarding your "honest" comment, I assume this comes from what I said to fred harvey. To be clear, what I said was that I never encountered an organization run by honest people that found pursuing high ethical standards to be an impediment to conducting business. This was an observation stemming from my business experience.

[Bob Armstrong]

CFC Ethics Committee - Will Be Expected to Receive Briefs On COI

Hi Peter:

You have generated a good debate on this issue.

As you are aware, I took it to the governors and they have debated it hotly on the confidential CFC Governors' Discussion Board. It has resulted in a referral of the issue, by CFC President Bob Gillanders, to the exisiting ( though currently undermanned and not functioning ) Ethics Committee.

I look forward to your brief to the CFC Ethics Committee on Conflict of Interest in tournament bids, once CFC manages to people that Committee and get it functioning.

Bob

[Peter McKillop]

Re: CFC Ethics Committee - Will Be Expected to Receive Briefs On COI

... I look forward to your brief to the CFC Ethics Committee on Conflict of Interest in tournament bids ...

Thanks, Bob (you wise guy :) ).

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Conflict of Interest Challenges?

You from New Brunswick, Fred?

[Peter McKillop]

Re: Conflict of Interest Challenges?

Peter, Roger hits the nail right on the head. We need and want governors to be involved, to submit bid and/or help others. Telling them they can't both help and vote is counterproductive. We want governors to be involved. ...

Bob, over the last decade or so there has been so much online talk about deadwood governors/no-show governors/etc., that I really can appreciate why governors who are actually participating in managing the CFC, organizing tournaments and just generally promoting chess in their communities, are considered to be valuable assets by the CFC. But from my viewpoint that still doesn't justify running the bid process with poor ethical standards.

I have a suggestion. I find it difficult to believe that huge numbers of governors are involved annually in organizing bids for national events. Surely there must be a few governors available for a special assignment. Why not establish, at each AGM, a bid assessment committee comprised of, say, six to ten experienced governors (with maybe a few experienced rank-and-filers included) who do not expect to be directly involved in/committed to organizing a bid for a national event that will be submitted during the period ending at the next AGM? The bid assessment committee's mandate would be to assess bids submitted for national events, subject to some fair and objective criteria established by the CFC, and then recommend the best bids to the governors prior to the governors determining the winners in a vote (or, you could have the bid assessment committee make the final decisions). Then, if some newbie asks whether their bid will be treated impartially and considered on its own merits, you can answer yes (as opposed to answering: sorry, kid, but the whole thing is just a big crap shoot based on regional voting blocks and has nothing to do with merit).

Conflict of interest rules are first and foremost meant to protect the organization from individuals who have a competing financial interest. To extend that definition to try and achieve your utopian ideal of an unbiased vote is neither possible, enforceable, or even desirable!

You're sounding like that fred harvey fellow who doesn't want to talk to me anymore. We're not talking about laws here, or criminal activity. That's ridiculous. There's a big world out there (e.g. quasi-government entities like hospitals, school boards & universities; financial services providers; investment bankers; other privately and publicly held companies; professional organizations for lawyers, accountants; not-for-profit entities; etc.) and there are plenty of conflict of interest guidelines in use which have little or nothing to do with money and everything to do with fostering fair play and objectivity. The CFC can do this, Bob. It can pursue and achieve a high ethical standard in its operations.

[Bob Gillanders]

Re: Conflict of Interest Challenges?

I have a suggestion. .....a bid assessment committee comprised of, say, six to ten experienced governors (with maybe a few experienced rank-and-filers included) who do not expect to be directly involved in/committed to organizing a bid for a national event that will be submitted during the period ending at the next AGM?

another committee! We already have committees we can't staff. But we have setup the tournament coordination committee staffed with experienced organizers to promote future bids. It is having trouble getting off the ground because Chris hasn't set up the discussion board yet. :( I will send him another reminder in a few minutes!

Then, if some newbie asks whether their bid will be treated impartially and considered on its own merits, you can answer yes (as opposed to answering: sorry, kid, but the whole thing is just a big crap shoot based on regional voting blocks and has nothing to do with merit).

Actually my answer right now would be Yes. I am satisfied that on the whole, merit is given the most weight, and regional and personal bias much less weight. Really! :)

There's a big world out there (e.g. quasi-government entities like hospitals, school boards & universities; financial services providers; investment bankers; other privately and publicly held companies; professional organizations for lawyers, accountants; not-for-profit entities; etc.) and there are plenty of conflict of interest guidelines in use which have little or nothing to do with money and everything to do with fostering fair play and objectivity. The CFC can do this, Bob. It can pursue and achieve a high ethical standard in its operations.

I think allowing all governors to vote on bids does achieve an acceptable ethical standard. If we can learn from other organizations, great. Would you like to research that for us? As Bob A. said, the ethics committee would be happy to receive your brief. Better yet, how would you like to serve on the ethics committee? :D

Peter, I appreciate your motives but I really think changes would be counterproductive.
We can continue the conversation over beers in Niagara Falls in April if you want.
For now, I'll pull a fred harvey too.
Enough said. :)
But if you want the final word, please go ahead!