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Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
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Possibly the Ottawa Chess Club should start applying the rules regarding scoresheets.
Hi Gary
The RA Chess Club (of Ottawa) does not run Aris' Ottawa weekend events; Aris (who currently is president of the Eastern Ontario Chess Association) does. The RA building and some RA club chess equipment happens to be used, but the RA club itself runs Thursday nights (and casually Sunday afternoons, when there is no weekend event being held).
The Ottawa Chess Club is a different club. It has few or (probably) no members currently, nor a physical club location nowadays, as far as I know. It is the club upon which the Ottawa Chess Club Message Board is named after.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
And really, how many games in the average Swiss are worth putting in the effort to record for all eternity?
Very few. The main point is we have someone who has been archiving the games. If I want to see how a player has progressed from the time he started playing junion chess until he made IM or GM I can look at the archive.
Books and games collections of the old masters are really game archives. One players great game might be a much stronger players contribution to the trash can.
Abe Yanofsky supplied all his game scores to have them archived. I have a copy of the archive.
In the handbook there is Section 4. The Laws of Chess. That section has a link to the FIDE laws of chess which apply.
If you follow the link it goes to the FIDE Laws of Chess. Now scroll down to section 8. That deals with the scoresheets. Article 8.3 in the section goes even farther. It says "The scoresheets are the property of the organisers of the event".
We weren't talking cheating but archiving. For cheating I'd use rules dealing with sportsmanship.
Possibly the Ottawa Chess Club should start applying the rules regarding scoresheets.
Geez, then I guess someone better tell the all of the organizers across the country to start collecting scoresheets in every tournament for every single player and turning them into the CFC central clearing house for archiving. Until that happens I think I will hold onto my scoresheets, thanks.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
Geez, then I guess someone better tell the all of the organizers across the country to start collecting scoresheets in every tournament for every single player and turning them into the CFC central clearing house for archiving. Until that happens I think I will hold onto my scoresheets, thanks.
The better arbiters don't have to be told.
How about "you didn't give me any scoresheets and I'm not giving you any prize money". So simple is organizing, :):)
How about "you didn't give me any scoresheets and I'm not giving you any prize money". So simple is organizing
In an earlier post I mentioned that Aris and Hal are both FIDE-qualified arbiters but they don't insist on collecting scoresheets. (FWIW, their tournaments are the best run I have played in).
How about "you didn't give me any scoresheets and I'm not giving you any prize money". So simple is organizing, :):)
You do understand that there is no CFC central clearinghouse for chess scoresheets, right? So in other words, you want organizers all across the country to collect scoresheets for no purpose whatsoever because it's in the rules? Really?
Since we are going to play chess lawyer, here's what the rule says:
"8.3 The scoresheets are the property of the organisers of the event."
Setting aside that it doesn't say specifically which scoresheets (i.e. why not bring some filled out beforehand?), it certainly doesn't say that the ink used on those scoresheets are the property of the organizer. Nor does it say that the scoresheet has to be in good condition (e.g. I could submit it torn into 100 pieces). So I guess it would be okay if I make the scoresheet as illegible as possible ... after the game.
"8.1 In the course of play(TO: emphasis mine) each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily (sic) as possible, in the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition."
So ya, I guess if we are going to play chess lawyer you could end up with a scoresheet that you can't read, that would probably never be entered in a database anyway, and which would end up in the trash after the event, most likely.
Congratulations. :-) :-)
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
In the same post also asked you how you dealt with scoresheet collection in the tournaments that you TD'ed.
In over the board chess we had an elected TD. It wasn't me. I served around 5 terms (years) first as vice president and then president.
In correspondence chess I directed tournaments for around 20 years. First with the Canadian federation and then for the International federation. I'm an IA. I directed hundreds of players at a time in thousands of games. I either got a scoresheet or a double default.
When no scoresheet came with a result I'd write and ask for one. Mostly I'd get 2 scoresheets for the games.
I used to get hundreds of Christmas cards. We put ribbons across the living room and dining room and put the cards over the ribbons. It was very impressive when visitors came and when we had our New Years day dinner for relatives.
Collecting scoresheets isn't adversarial, unless it's being discussed here.
If you had to guess, about what % of the most recently played games do you think come from electronic sources like online dBs or websites or email?
Here are the sources of the 6442 Canadian games in the CanBase database played in 2010 (i.e. games played in Canada only - does not include Olympiad games, etc.):
583 - Alberta Chess Association
171 - BC
2564 - me and other Montreal volunteers (including Luc Gauthier and Danny Goldenberg).
305 - Quebec City
1100 - Scarborough Chess Club
513 - Manitoba Chess Association
1206 - other sources - mostly from Ontario (Canadian, Ontario, and Toronto Opens, Kitchener, Guelph, Ottawa, etc.)
Egidijus wrote:
Let me know what are missing, and I may help.
As far as the CFC magazines go, I have done everything up to the end of 1996. I am working on 1997 and part of 1998. The rest of 1998 through most of 2003 are done. Anything after 2003 is up for grabs - but some of those games may already be in my database.
1) There are some provincial and national events where my games are of minor historic value (e.g. Canadian Closed, Canadian Junior, Ontario Closed, BC Closed, Quebec Closed, etc.) and where it is mandatory and logical to preserve the scores.
2) There are international events like Olympiads where my games have extremely minor historic value. Besides, people actually paid my expenses to be there, so even if it weren't a requirement, I would feel honour-bound to make them available.
3) I don't do anything to discourage my opponents from submitting games. I think they are making a mistake, but it's their property and therefore its their mistake to make. I don't actively discourage other people from submitting scoresheets, though I do tell my students that I think it's a bad idea.
I think it is even worse for U8s, U10s, etc. to make their games available. Most of them have pretty well-defined repertoires and the coaches for other countries are going to use those games against the Canadian kids.
"Tom is a well known racist, and like most of them he won't admit it, possibly even to himself." - Ed Seedhouse, October 4, 2020.
As far as the CFC magazines go, I have done everything up to the end of 1996. I am working on 1997 and part of 1998. The rest of 1998 through most of 2003 are done. Anything after 2003 is up for grabs - but some of those games may already be in my database.
I don't do anything to discourage my opponents from submitting games. I think they are making a mistake, but it's their property and therefore its their mistake to make. I don't actively discourage other people from submitting scoresheets, though I do tell my students that I think it's a bad idea.
I think it is even worse for U8s, U10s, etc. to make their games available. Most of them have pretty well-defined repertoires and the coaches for other countries are going to use those games against the Canadian kids.
If I did not know better I might think you were kidding. If preparing for your opponents through looking at their games is good, it has to be a two way street. Preparing and facing prepared players who will test your openings and your play in general makes everyone better. This concept is especially important for young players. There are also advantages in having one's games in databases. One can spot where opponents will try to get the upper hand and prepare accordingly. Trying to avoid this process is detrimental to one's development as a player.
The World U08 games (as well as all the other age-group classes) are available for download free of charge from TWIC (#835). We can prepare for them just as much as they can prepare for us.
If I did not know better I might think you were kidding. If preparing for your opponents through looking at their games is good, it has to be a two way street. Preparing and facing prepared players who will test your openings and your play in general makes everyone better. This concept is especially important for young players. There are also advantages in having one's games in databases. One can spot where opponents will try to get the upper hand and prepare accordingly. Trying to avoid this process is detrimental to one's development as a player.
Now let's not be naive here. First, I completely agree with Tom's point of not submitting scoresheets unless you want to or just making it voluntary. I mean I can't make my opponent not hand in his scoresheet but there's no reason to give future opponents more games to prepare against you.
Younger kids have such narrow repertoires that if they don't play the openings they've learned, they have no shot in the opening and usually get decimated. I of course use that knowledge as an advantage and will often play some off-beat lines to take them out of book early and just easily outplay the vast majority of juniors. If I know a junior only plays sicilian najdorf as black and has a weak foundation against d4, I can either choose to play d4 or prepare a 25-move line against them in one of the lines of the najdorf. Doing this will really surprise them and even if it was two players of equal rating, such a massive knowledge advantage will be detrimental to the junior.
Second of all, imagine this scenario - some future CYCC comes about and the last round for all the marbles is at stake. White has a few games submitted but it's not clear what opening he plays. Black plays mainline KID and some kind of a ruy lopez system. White goes through 50 or so games of Black and finds a flaw in black's lines against the scotch. White plays scotch a lot but black doesn't know that cause there's no games in the database. White preps a tricky line and beats black in 25 moves. White finishes first and black finished 4th. What's the developmental advantages for black of not even going to WYCC because some junior prepped you and played about 4 actual moves?
I don't do anything to discourage my opponents from submitting games. I think they are making a mistake, but it's their property and therefore its their mistake to make. I don't actively discourage other people from submitting scoresheets, though I do tell my students that I think it's a bad idea.
I think it is even worse for U8s, U10s, etc. to make their games available. Most of them have pretty well-defined repertoires and the coaches for other countries are going to use those games against the Canadian kids.
Tom, are you in favour of chess960 as a means of preventing the studying of well-defined repertoires? It almost seems that you are making a larger point here: that the studying of an opponent's opening repertoire is an unfortunate characteristic of standard chess that is furthered by each recorded game submission that makes its way into the public record. I mean, if we take your desire to not have your game scores available to an extreme, then there would be no game scores available at all. But of course, that can't happen, chess is a recordable game and the recording of moves is necessary on both sides for dispute resolution. I don't think you or anyone reasonable would like for there to be no game scores available anywhere. Truly, the more the better if for nothing else than the sheer appreciation of the logical beauty of chess.
I suggest something: instead of arguing against public availability of game scoresheets, why not work towards the promotion of chess960 as the new standard for tournament chess, so that opening repertoire study becomes practically useless and players of all age groups are forced to rely on creativity and originality?
Only the rushing is heard...
Onward flies the bird.
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