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The best try for White seems to be 1.c5 but after 1... Kd7 (and not dxc5?), black should be able to hold with precise play... I didn't spend much time on the other moves, maybe there's something more convincing.
With c5 white forces a position where black's king must defend against imminent queening threats. Black can proceed several ways but all with the same effect.
The black kingside pawns can't do the same to white. So after pinning down the black king white tempos into access to the black kside pawns. These can't escape and will be hunted down.
Against Felix's Ke7, leave the pawns set until the white king comes forward, then
Kf5 Ke7
c6 bc
dc
Any black action makes things easier.
This is a tricky endgame though with many variations to consider. A careless player could easily lose. I think my above analysis summarizes the situation okay, but there's a lot of choices to consider when the breaks occur.
Last edited by Alan Baljeu; Tuesday, 1st February, 2011, 07:46 AM.
Reason: For Felix
I think White is simply winning, unless I am missing some trick. After c5, black has to keep his King near the White passed pawn and if Black plays passively White can move his King over to c4 and play b5 with a win. If Black tries to advance on the Kingside, White's King just comes up and takes the pawns.
So I think Black was quite right to avoid this ending.
I think White is simply winning, unless I am missing some trick. After c5, black has to keep his King near the White passed pawn and if Black plays passively White can move his King over to c4 and play b5 with a win. If Black tries to advance on the Kingside, White's King just comes up and takes the pawns.
So I think Black was quite right to avoid this ending.
I think you will have to do better than that in your analysis. Consider the line:
1 c5 Ke7 2. Kg2 g6 3. Kf3 h6 4. Ke4 Kd7 5. Kd4 Kc7 6. Kc4 Kd7 7. b5 dc 8. Kc5 g5 9. ba ba 10. Kd4 Kd6 11. Ke4 g4 12. Kf5 Kd5 13 Kg4 Ke5 =
There is a fairly simple win (although fairly non intuitive) but you haven't shown it.
I looked at the position again and instaneously saw a plan:
1.c5 Ke7
2. h4 g6
3. h5! and if 3... g6 4. h6
It seems to win in every variation... If Black doesn't push g6, White just bring his king, then wait for the good moment to push h6 and bring the king in f6.
@ Alan, the problem with that plan is that black will play h6 and g6, preventing White from playing Kf5. And then there's no way to break through.
But I think that the plan mentionned above by Patrick Kirby should work too. In your analysis, 10. Kb6 instead of Kd4 seems to win.
Last edited by Felix Dumont; Tuesday, 1st February, 2011, 09:20 PM.
I looked at the position again and instaneously saw a plan:
1.c5 Ke7
2. h4 g6
3. h5! and if 3... g6 4. h6
It seems to win in every variation... If Black doesn't push g6, White just bring his king, then wait for the good moment to push h6 and bring the king in f6.
@ Alan, the problem with that plan is that black will play h6 and g6, preventing White from playing Kf5. And then there's no way to break through.
But I think that the plan mentionned above by Patrick Kirby should work too. In your analysis, 10. Kb6 instead of Kd4 seems to win.
Bingo! (and if 3 ... g5 then 4 h6 is what I think you meant to say, completing the unexpected run of the h pawn...) Stopping black from setting up g6, h6 must be done right away.
In that other line from Patrick 10. Kb6 g4 11. Ka6 h5 12 Kb7 h4 13. a6 g3 14 hg hg 15 a7 g2 is drawn.
Ought to be a study!
Last edited by Roger Patterson; Tuesday, 1st February, 2011, 10:16 PM.
I looked at the position again and instaneously saw a plan:
1.c5 Ke7
2. h4 g6
3. h5! and if 3... g6 4. h6
It seems to win in every variation... If Black doesn't push g6, White just bring his king, then wait for the good moment to push h6 and bring the king in f6.
@ Alan, the problem with that plan is that black will play h6 and g6, preventing White from playing Kf5. And then there's no way to break through.
I like that strategy Felix.
As for pushing g6 and h6 to counter to my plan, what if this:
3.Kf3 g6 4.Kf4 h6 5.de6 Kxe6 6.Ke4
Bingo! (and if 3 ... g5 then 4 h6 is what I think you meant to say, completing the unexpected run of the h pawn...) Stopping black from setting up g6, h6 must be done right away.
In that other line from Patrick 10. Kb6 g4 11. Ka6 h5 12 Kb7 h4 13. a6 g3 14 hg hg 15 a7 g2 is drawn.
Ought to be a study!
I wonder why Black cannot take: 3 ...gxh5 ?
After 4.Kg2(h2) dxc5 5. bxc5
Black brings his king at e5, forcing pawn at d6, then king goes to c6 and pushes the b pawn. In the meantime the White king is busy with the h pawn(s)
I checked a bit (with an old Fritz) and the best that White could come up is a Q+P vs Q ending - not a clear win.
This is some of the worst endgame analysis I have ever seen. You are taking an interesting endgame and butchering it completely. Not sure who suggested 2.h4 and h5, but it is a very easy win with this idea.
Heh. I put a lot of thought into my initial response, studying the position and possibilities. Yet for all that I failed to recognize the key. It's curious why that should be so. I don't know if there's a solution other than reading more of Dvoretsky and learning all the key positions.
Heh. I put a lot of thought into my initial response, studying the position and possibilities. Yet for all that I failed to recognize the key. It's curious why that should be so. I don't know if there's a solution other than reading more of Dvoretsky and learning all the key positions.
There is a reason computer programs are not very good at endgames (I am not including 'cheating' by using tablebases). They are complex and the rules are few and far between.
Reminds me of a joker who set up the initial position and quipped: "here is a new study - white to play and win"
I wonder why Black cannot take: 3 ...gxh5 ?
After 4.Kg2(h2) dxc5 5. bxc5
Black brings his king at e5, forcing pawn at d6, then king goes to c6 and pushes the b pawn. In the meantime the White king is busy with the h pawn(s)
I checked a bit (with an old Fritz) and the best that White could come up is a Q+P vs Q ending - not a clear win.
What did I miss ?
Looks like you are right. You've cooked the problem!
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