If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Policy / Politique
The fee for tournament organizers advertising on ChessTalk is $20/event or $100/yearly unlimited for the year.
Les frais d'inscription des organisateurs de tournoi sur ChessTalk sont de 20 $/événement ou de 100 $/année illimitée.
You can etransfer to Henry Lam at chesstalkforum at gmail dot com
Transfér à Henry Lam à chesstalkforum@gmail.com
Dark Knight / Le Chevalier Noir
General Guidelines
---- Nous avons besoin d'un traduction français!
Some Basics
1. Under Board "Frequently Asked Questions" (FAQs) there are 3 sections dealing with General Forum Usage, User Profile Features, and Reading and Posting Messages. These deal with everything from Avatars to Your Notifications. Most general technical questions are covered there. Here is a link to the FAQs. https://forum.chesstalk.com/help
2. Consider using the SEARCH button if you are looking for information. You may find your question has already been answered in a previous thread.
3. If you've looked for an answer to a question, and not found one, then you should consider asking your question in a new thread. For example, there have already been questions and discussion regarding: how to do chess diagrams (FENs); crosstables that line up properly; and the numerous little “glitches” that every new site will have.
4. Read pinned or sticky threads, like this one, if they look important. This applies especially to newcomers.
5. Read the thread you're posting in before you post. There are a variety of ways to look at a thread. These are covered under “Display Modes”.
6. Thread titles: please provide some details in your thread title. This is useful for a number of reasons. It helps ChessTalk members to quickly skim the threads. It prevents duplication of threads. And so on.
7. Unnecessary thread proliferation (e.g., deliberately creating a new thread that duplicates existing discussion) is discouraged. Look to see if a thread on your topic may have already been started and, if so, consider adding your contribution to the pre-existing thread. However, starting new threads to explore side-issues that are not relevant to the original subject is strongly encouraged. A single thread on the Canadian Open, with hundreds of posts on multiple sub-topics, is no better than a dozen threads on the Open covering only a few topics. Use your good judgment when starting a new thread.
8. If and/or when sub-forums are created, please make sure to create threads in the proper place.
Debate
9. Give an opinion and back it up with a reason. Throwaway comments such as "Game X pwnz because my friend and I think so!" could be considered pointless at best, and inflammatory at worst.
10. Try to give your own opinions, not simply those copied and pasted from reviews or opinions of your friends.
Unacceptable behavior and warnings
11. In registering here at ChessTalk please note that the same or similar rules apply here as applied at the previous Boardhost message board. In particular, the following content is not permitted to appear in any messages:
* Racism
* Hatred
* Harassment
* Adult content
* Obscene material
* Nudity or pornography
* Material that infringes intellectual property or other proprietary rights of any party
* Material the posting of which is tortious or violates a contractual or fiduciary obligation you or we owe to another party
* Piracy, hacking, viruses, worms, or warez
* Spam
* Any illegal content
* unapproved Commercial banner advertisements or revenue-generating links
* Any link to or any images from a site containing any material outlined in these restrictions
* Any material deemed offensive or inappropriate by the Board staff
12. Users are welcome to challenge other points of view and opinions, but should do so respectfully. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Posts and threads with unacceptable content can be closed or deleted altogether. Furthermore, a range of sanctions are possible - from a simple warning to a temporary or even a permanent banning from ChessTalk.
Helping to Moderate
13. 'Report' links (an exclamation mark inside a triangle) can be found in many places throughout the board. These links allow users to alert the board staff to anything which is offensive, objectionable or illegal. Please consider using this feature if the need arises.
Advice for free
14. You should exercise the same caution with Private Messages as you would with any public posting.
The comments above are all very helpful. If the TD determines that a player has in fact cheated, what should the sanction be? Forfeit of game? Forefeit of all games in tournament? Banned from future play and if so, for how long?
All this assumes that there is very strong circumstantial evidence and that the player has a right to appeal to a discipline committee, etc.
The sanction for cheating should be loss of the game in which he was caught, expulsion from the tournament and a ban on playing in other tournaments for a period of time. I think that some players have even been charged criminally where there are large prizes involved.
I was involved in the Windsor Chess Challenge as an arbiter and one of the sections had grade one and grade two students and in some cases there were quite a few disputes over touch move rules. Some of the kids would make repeated violations and deny that they had done so even if I actually saw them do it. In some of the cases I don't believe that they even realized what they were doing. The other problem we had was with bystanders offering help to players with the game. In one case, we had a touch move dispute involving two players with a witness sitting at the next board saying that he saw the touch move infraction and that it occurred when he told the player to make a different move.
Tricky situation indeed. Perhaps using the clocks may help, especially if they are digital. When the player goes to use the loo. Write down the times of both players. First the time of the player who is about to go to the loo with his move just made and then the time of the opponents clock in the space with the opponent's move to be made slot. I think that should stop any shenanigans of that nature, right? Any flaws in my reasoning?
This may be a silly question, but what happens if player A leaves the playing area while it is his opponent's turn, and his opponent (player B) moves while player A is still away, and then at some point while player A is still away, player B (and/or even the arbiter) declares that player A left his game while it was still player A's move?
If there is no witness who can remember if player A left the playing area while it was player B's turn, is the onus on player A to prove that he did not do so?
Tricky but I think I have a solution. The player going to the loo, player A, writes down the time of his last move and the current time of his opponent on the soon to be recorded spot of his opponent's next move. Problem solved, no?
The sanction for cheating should be loss of the game in which he was caught, expulsion from the tournament and a ban on playing in other tournaments for a period of time. I think that some players have even been charged criminally where there are large prizes involved.
I was involved in the Windsor Chess Challenge as an arbiter and one of the sections had grade one and grade two students and in some cases there were quite a few disputes over touch move rules. Some of the kids would make repeated violations and deny that they had done so even if I actually saw them do it. In some of the cases I don't believe that they even realized what they were doing. The other problem we had was with bystanders offering help to players with the game. In one case, we had a touch move dispute involving two players with a witness sitting at the next board saying that he saw the touch move infraction and that it occurred when he told the player to make a different move.
Vlad,
I understand your frustrations but that might be a tad heavy handed. Everyone needs a chance to learn from their mistakes especially kids. Adults cheating is a different story. Kid cheating, forfeit of game, with a stern warning of any repeat offence resulting in expulsion of tournament. Adult cheating, forfeit of game and expulsion from tournament and dishonorable mention on chess talk for all other organizers to see;)
There really needs to be a ban on electronic devices. Found having one turned on, even in the pocket is a loss. No phone texting. A player can ask the TD for an exemption if they are expecting an important call work/family related in which case it can be set on vibrate or left with the TD.
I remember one weekend tournament in the 1970s where my opponent, not sitting at the board, saw my move and left to the washroom for 15 minutes. Eventually I went to use the washroom. Didn't see him around but heard clicking noises in a stall and peaked: he was playing the moves on a pocket chess set. The TD refused to go looking in a bathroom stall. My opponent returned and played a brilliant move. I think I managed to find a draw.
I also remember an opponent talking Russian with a higher-rated spectator while I was trying to make my move. How do I know that they are not talking about the position? I really think parents and coaches should not talk with players and keep away from the game. Also they can go over it back home, not on the tournament board, leaning over players at the next board. People should be able to socialize, but please have some respect for others in the tournament hall.
I was involved in the Windsor Chess Challenge as an arbiter and one of the sections had grade one and grade two students and in some cases there were quite a few disputes over touch move rules. Some of the kids would make repeated violations and deny that they had done so even if I actually saw them do it. In some of the cases I don't believe that they even realized what they were doing.
Tell them to use their pencil instead of the King if they are itchy and want to scratch.
For the most part, in my opinion, if the clubs and tournaments want to allow youngsters to play and take their money they should be prepared to be tolerant with the things youngsters do. You never know. One day little Fritz might become a GM and prove he really could play a few good moves in a game.
You should have seen the long distance arguments and language in correspondence chess. Usually I'd get the letters from both players demanding the other one be disqualified. I'd leave it a couple of weeks and then write both players for clarification. After a couple of months of jerking them around I'd ask them to resume the game. By that time the were upset with me and had likely forgot what started the disagreement. For years of this they made me an IA. :)
This may be a silly question, but what happens if player A leaves the playing area while it is his opponent's turn, and his opponent (player B) moves while player A is still away, and then at some point while player A is still away, player B (and/or even the arbiter) declares that player A left his game while it was still player A's move?
If there is no witness who can remember if player A left the playing area while it was player B's turn, is the onus on player A to prove that he did not do so?
Reply by Gordon Gooding:
Tricky but I think I have a solution. The player going to the loo, player A, writes down the time of his last move and the current time of his opponent on the soon to be recorded spot of his opponent's next move. Problem solved, no?
Hi Gordon
I think that might require a rule change for a hypothetical situation that I posed with my question, a situation which to my knowledge hasn't occured yet. It possibly was a silly question on my part, conceived as it was when I was tired. That's because I now think no arbiter worth his salt would punish (or possibly even warn) player A if there is doubt (e.g. due to lack of witnesses other than player B) that player A didn't leave for the loo while it was his turn to move. Instead the arbiter might try to keep an eye on that particular game from then on.
A better hypothetical situation to consider, perhaps, is if player X loiters in the tournament hall near an exit, looking at his opponent player Y thinking about what move to make (assuming their board is visible from where player X is standing). Player X waits for Y to move, sees the move, and then goes out to the loo. How is that form of cheating stopped in a foolproof manner, without possibly requiring the kind of rule change you suggest?
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
I understand your frustrations but that might be a tad heavy handed. Everyone needs a chance to learn from their mistakes especially kids. Adults cheating is a different story. Kid cheating, forfeit of game, with a stern warning of any repeat offence resulting in expulsion of tournament. Adult cheating, forfeit of game and expulsion from tournament and dishonorable mention on chess talk for all other organizers to see;)
I didn't mean forfeiting the little tykes. The example was for an adult or experienced player. I don't think that we need any more rules for this situation. We just need to enforce the rules that exist. I don't know how the player wouldn't run into time trouble if he is running to the bathroom for every move.
Simple solution - and I've had this exact problem before - the player cannot leave when it is their move.
I had one (young) player doing this repeatedly, and I warned him that he was not to leave the general vicinity of his board (ie the "Playing Area") on his own move. If I caught him leaving the room again on his move, he would forfeit his game.
Sure they could still do it on their opponent's move, however this will be harder (more moves to remember). If the problem persists you could go the route of "One bathroom break per hour, or you will not be welcome in my events anymore"
The problem with that approach is that if implemented under current laws you could leave yourself open to a lawsuit or a human rights complaint and subsequent substantial fine if the need to go to the bathroom is due to a common condition such as diabetes or the side effects of the various medications that one takes for diabetes and the usual hypertension fighting and cholesterol fighting drugs that are part and parcel of the treatment process. Common side effects of those drugs include gastrointestinal distress from time to time.
I suppose that like the jealous astronaut you could require participants to wear adult diapers which would negate the need to leave the room to do their business but this could definitely cause some environmental problems and might be problematic in attracting sponsors other than providers of adult diapers. I suppose there could also be a market for catheters and canteens a la Semi-Tough`` Burt Reynolds character in a long ago movie involving a cultish parody of EST which involved locking large number of people in a room for a seminar without allowing them to go to the bathroom. His character used a catheter and canteen to defeat this discipline.
The arbiter is allowed to make exceptions to many rules, including the cell phone rule, but it is up to the player to make those arrangements with the arbiter ahead of time.
In general, cheating like this will be easy to spot via post-game analysis using a computer.
In general, cheating like this will be easy to spot via post-game analysis using a computer.
I've played any number of games where according to my post-game computer-assisted analysis, I've made no tactical errors. Also, with all the playing programs now available, it could be hard to check that some less common engine wasn't being used to produce moves.
Also, even reasonably skilled class players might know when it is probably a good idea to ask a computer for help, i.e. when a given position *looks* like it has the potential for a dangerous tactical sequence. This could reduce the number of bathroom breaks for the purposes of cheating that a player might take.
It's not necessarily so easy nowadays to say that even a very young kid playing tactically skillfully is suspicious necessarily, given all the chess teaching and child prodigies out there.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
I've played any number of games where according to my post-game computer-assisted analysis, I've made no tactical errors. Also, with all the playing programs now available, it could be hard to check that some less common engine wasn't being used to produce moves.
Also, even reasonably skilled class players might know when it is probably a good idea to ask a computer for help, i.e. when a given position *looks* like it has the potential for a dangerous tactical sequence. This could reduce the number of bathroom breaks for the purposes of cheating that a player might take.
It's not necessarily so easy nowadays to say that even a very young kid playing tactically skillfully is suspicious necessarily, given all the chess teaching and child prodigies out there.
You are completely turning this around. I said "Cheating like this" and you are contradicting my statement by using examples that are not "like this"...
We were talking about someone taking a bathroom break on nearly every move. Obviously someone who only cheats once in a game is going to be much more difficult to catch. But that is a different and less obvious problem.
I was teaching twins at one point and they handed in nearly identical papers for a project. I told them that I thought they had copied each other (which was obviously the case). To my amazement they explained that because they were genetically identical, and had grown up in the same household, their answers should be expected to be more alike than other pairs of students! I explained to them that even if that was the case, in order to avoid the appearance of cheating they should ensure that their papers are not too similar in future. This kind of approach might work with the kid who heads to the toilet every move -- take him to one side and explain that it looks like he might be cheating and just to avoid being accused of it perhaps he should stay at the board.
Harper's Government is building lots of new prisons so lets start filling them up with kids that cheat in chess; how else will they be filled with crime rates dropping...
Tweet
Comment