Closed playoffs

[Alan Baljeu]

In the likely event of a playoff, how will that go? I guess it will start about 6 or 7pm. One game? Normal time control?

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Closed playoffs

In the likely event of a playoff, how will that go? I guess it will start about 6 or 7pm. One game? Normal time control?

from the book

"810. Tie Break:

Should two or more players finish the tournament with the same number of points then in order to determine an outright winner, a tie-break based on the result of a shorter game using a sudden death time control of 30 minutes per player shall be used. If a Fischer clock is available it shall be used with a per move bonus of 10 seconds.

In the case of two players tying, there will be a single game tie-break with colours being chosen by lot. If the game is a draw colours will be reversed. If both of the first two games are drawn then the time control shall be shortened to 15 minutes per player with a per move bonus of 10 seconds per move, if a Fischer clock is available. Games will continue at this time control with alternation of colours until one game is won.

In the case of 3, 4 or 5 players tying, there will be a single round robin using a time control of 30 minutes per player with a per move bonus of 10 seconds per move, if a Fischer clock is available. There will be a further playoff by the winners of the round robin in the case of a further tie except the time control for this subsequent play-off shall be 15 minutes per player with a per move bonus of 10 seconds per move, if a Fischer clock is available.

In all other cases the CFC President shall decide upon the format for breaking the tie"

[David Cohen]

Re: Closed playoffs

Congratulations to players and organizers... very exciting finish.

I don't know about FM title: Morgon might not be eligible because of his bye. I think you have to play 9 games. 4/8 falls short of 4.5.

[Stuart Brammall]

Re: Closed playoffs

I don't know about FM title: Morgon might not be eligible because of his bye. I think you have to play 9 games. 4/8 falls short of 4.5.

It would be nice if in such situations another game could be arranged... Being near the bottom of the seeding list Morgon was almost gauranteed to get a bye.

What if the the bottom seed, who got a bye round 1, finished with 4/8? doesn't seem quite fair.


(Although the whole concept of awarding titles for a performace in one tournament seems somewhat misguided.)

[Morgon Mills]

Re: Closed playoffs

I'm just back from watching the climactic finishes (Calugar beat Plotkin and should get the IM title, I think, and Sambuev beat Hansen in the second rapid game to take the overall championship). From my perspective, it was a great tournament and a lot of fun.

I got lucky in a few games, including in the final round--obviously I am very happy with 5/9. Funny enough, it seems that my score should qualify for an FM title, which I never dreamed would be possible. Anyway, once it became clear that Calugar would likely win his game and leave me clear of the pack for the second FM title (Kleinman taking the first one), Hal Bond let me know that I was disqualified on account of my bye.

Interestingly, this leaves a few players behind me tied with 4.5/9, one of whom also had a bye!

I have quickly checked the FIDE rules and they do require at least 9 games and at least 50%.

I have one question, however, which I should have asked Hal immediately (but to be fair, this whole situation only came to my attention about an hour ago). I actually played a game during round 2 (when I was given the bye): I played Terry Song in the Pro section of the Guelph Pro-Am, and won the game.

Can that game not be included and therefore give me 9 games and the FM title?

Regardless of the answer, I'd like to thank the organizers, sponsors, MonRoi, the spectators, and all the players for a great time. Much appreciated.

-Morgon Mills

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Closed playoffs - FM Titles

I just posted the following on the CFC " News " Forum re the FM titles:

" Michael Kleinman ( FIDE – 2195; CFC – 2284 ) will be awarded the first FM title, with his 5.5/9 score.

There will be a play-off round robin for the 2nd FM title, among those scoring 4.5/9 pts.:

Roman Sapozhnikov, Ontario ( FIDE – 2318; CFC – 2451 )
Victor Plotkin, Ontario ( FIDE 2228; CFC 2422 )
Miladin Djerkovic, Ontario ( FIDE – 2186; CFC – 2280 )

Note: Morgon Mills scored 5/9 pts., but this included a " bye ", and so he does not qualify for the FM title. Also David Filipovich, Ontario ( FIDE – 2127; CFC – 2174 ) scored 4.5/9 pts., but that included a " bye " as well, and so he does not qualify. "

Does anyone know if this playoff is now taking place?

Bob

[Josh Guo]

Re: Closed playoffs

Does Roman need to play for FM title? His FIDE rating just crossed 2300 in the May rating list, which means he can just claim the FM title regardless.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Closed playoffs

Anyway, once it became clear that Calugar would likely win his game and leave me clear of the pack for the second FM title (Kleinman taking the first one), Hal Bond let me know that I was disqualified on account of my bye. -Morgon Mills

In such a tournament with titles at stake, everyone should be guaranteed to play nine games, especially when you have to pay 250$ to play. It is the duty of the organizer to have a filler on hand to avoid byes. I think that Aris Marguetis often does just that in his weekenders.

[John Upper]

Re: Closed playoffs - FM Titles

Does anyone know if this playoff is now taking place?

Miladin left Guelph hours before the playoffs would have started. Aris and Hal tried to contact him (via the Hotel etc.) but AFAIK did not succeed. So there was no playoff between Miladin and Victor.

I don't know where that leaves the FM title.

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: Closed playoffs

In such a tournament with titles at stake, everyone should be guaranteed to play nine games, especially when you have to pay 250$ to play. It is the duty of the organizer to have a filler on hand to avoid byes. I think that Aris Margetis often does just that in his weekenders.

As it happened, Mills played a game, whether you call it a filler or something else.

I have scanned the FIDE title regulations and I don't quite see where Morgon Mills's FM title is nullified, even if his round 2 win is counted as a forfeit. Can somebody cite the FIDE regulation? Thank you.

I see this one:

1.42c decided by forfeit, adjudication or any means other than over the board play. Other games once started, which are forfeited for whatever reason, shall however be included. In a last round game a player must play in order to have the required number of games, but can afford to lose. Then, if the opponent forfeits, the norm shall still count.

but what we have here is a Bye, as determined by FIDE-approved pairing methods. It might be argued that 1.42c means "Bye" in addition to what is stated, but if so, why did they simply not add "Bye" to the list? Regulation 1.4 (of which 1.42c is thus a subsection, in logic and in formatting) does not apply to FM titles, only to (W)GM and (W)IM. Which explains why they didn't include "Bye" in 1.42c: a Bye implies no opponent, so no calculation of the type of tables 1.49a. So my conclusion is that 1.42c is no impediment to Morgon Mills's FM title.

Anyone?

The FIDE Calendar gives

World Chess Olympiad 2012 Istanbul, Turkey 27-Aug-2012 10-Sep-2012.

The CFC Handbook gives

(b) National Team: The National Team shall consist of five players, as follows:

(i) The Canadian Champion, as of 180 days before the start of the Olympiad.
(ii) The three highest rated players on the Selection Rating list.
(iii) One player decided upon by the Selection Committee.

Now assuming that another Canadian Closed is not held before 27 Feb 2012, Bator Sambuev would qualify under (i). If Eric Hansen does not eventually qualify under (ii), will the Selection Committee choose him as the team member under (iii)? Because of what happened last time, in regard to Olympiad team selection, one has to ask. Considering especially how far Sambuev and Hansen were ahead of the field, and the fact that the tiebreak is just fast chess at the end of a long day. I bring this up now, before a Selection Committee is appointed, so that whatever decision becomes part of the Committee's terms of reference.

Congrats to Bator and Eric for their great success!

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: Closed playoffs - FM Titles

Hi John:

Thx. And I assume Gosh Guo's comment that Roman Sapozhnikov already qualifies for the FM title, by being over 2300 FIDE rating in the May 1 FIDE list is correct? And that's why the playoff is just between Miladin and Victor, and Roman is not involved?

[Pierre Denommee]

Re: Closed playoffs

Zonals and Sub-Zonals See Note a to d.

FM Title ≥9 games ≥ 50 % = title maximum of 2 FM title are permitted
CM Tiltle ≥9 game ≥ 40% = title

A bye is a game decided in a manner other then over the board play and therefore, it does not count. Vladimir Lazarev final GM norm has been refused because of a bye. He subsequently got the GM title with another valid norm.

As it happened, Mills played a game, whether you call it a filler or something else.

I have scanned the FIDE title regulations and I don't quite see where Morgon Mills's FM title is nullified, even if his round 2 win is counted as a forfeit. Can somebody cite the FIDE regulation? Thank you.

I see this one:

1.42c decided by forfeit, adjudication or any means other than over the board play. Other games once started, which are forfeited for whatever reason, shall however be included. In a last round game a player must play in order to have the required number of games, but can afford to lose. Then, if the opponent forfeits, the norm shall still count.

but what we have here is a Bye, as determined by FIDE-approved pairing methods. It might be argued that 1.42c means "Bye" in addition to what is stated, but if so, why did they simply not add "Bye" to the list? Regulation 1.4 (of which 1.42c is thus a subsection, in logic and in formatting) does not apply to FM titles, only to (W)GM and (W)IM. Which explains why they didn't include "Bye" in 1.42c: a Bye implies no opponent, so no calculation of the type of tables 1.49a. So my conclusion is that 1.42c is no impediment to Morgon Mills's FM title.

Anyone?

[Robert Roller]

Re: Closed playoffs

Would it not be simpler to make the Canadian Closed ten rounds instead of nine in the future? That way, everyone could take a full (or half) point bye, and not have to worry about this "nine game rule" for titles and such. Using fillers, who are not paired using regular methods, for extra games in order meet formal FIDE regulations for titles or norms will probably seem sketchy to FIDE. Does anyone know if this has been done anywhere else?

Before the tournament Morgon had his federation changed to Canada as it was erroneously (sorry, I must include this word at least once for my Hart House fans) listed as USA by FIDE. I teased him by saying that he if he won the championship title, then he didn't want it to be revoked on a technicality. As it turns out, it was a different technicality that cost him a different "title"!

Nevertheless, a great showing by Morgonovitch!

[Jonathan Berry]

Re: Closed playoffs

Zonals and Sub-Zonals See Note a to d.

FM Title ≥9 games ≥ 50 % = title maximum of 2 FM title are permitted
CM Tiltle ≥9 game ≥ 40% = title

A bye is a game decided in a manner other then over the board play and therefore, it does not count. Vladimir Lazarev final GM norm has been refused because of a bye. He subsequently got the GM title with another valid norm.

Where does it say that a game "does not count" for an FM title? I've already refuted FIDE section 1.4 as a source of that reasoning. I'm not talking about a GM norm, but an FM norm/title.

[John Brown]

Re: Closed playoffs

I think when Hal knew he had an uneven number for the closed and he had titles that could be made. He should have either refunded the lowest rated player's cash or made it a ten rounder so anyone with a bye would still have 9 rounds to count for norms etc.
This may have eliminated some of the playoffs at the end.