Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

[Victor Plotkin]

I start this thread because previous one switched to usual, pretty interesting and important discussion between M.Egorov and CFC leaders.

40 players suppose to give enough data, statistical error should be very low.

1. Total points 176.5/ 360 or -7. Number itself very close to zero, which is normal for big swiss tournaments, lot of players finished between -1 and +1.

2. Girls -21, boys +14. The differential is significant and cannot be explained by poor performance of just 1 girl (0 points, -9). Looks like this differential reflects some problems of women chess in Canada (in general).
I hope M. Egorov will not start posting here about big improvement Dora Liu could give to Canadian team. Even with 9 out of 9 (which is very unlikely) boys outperform girls by significant margin.

3. Total FIDE-rating points earned/lost by whole Canadian team -15, which means all rated players underperformed by just 1 point. If we will take into account that some Canadian players had rating factor of 30 (and not 15) and calculate this group separately, total result will be -2.5 points.
So rated players lost 2.5 points against expected performance. Not a very big number, but this number still negative. Negative number undermines the idea of "deflational invironment" in Canada.

4. Young girls (U8, U10, U12) total -1, young boys +13. "Big" girls (U14, U16, U18) -20, "big" boys +1.
Girls and boys together U8 +7, U10 +2, U12 +3, U14 -4, U16 -7, U18 -8. Trend is absolutely clear. The younger the better.

5. Almost impossible to compare young section of WYCC-2011 with WYCC-2010 (Greece), because lots of players are unrated. However in older sections the average rating was much below (more than 50 points, which is a huge number) this year. So WYCC was much weaker this year.

Conclusion... You can hate it, but the truth is: Canadian performance this year at WYCC was mediocre. So words like "incredible performance" and "great result" written here are just empty.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

The younger the better.

I think in U8 & U10 the success depends on a player's talent and stamina, in other words, any country have a shot on medals. For older kids, the results depend on national chess traditions.

All other numbers are just statistics. It would be more meaningful to compare CYCC winners with other best world kids.

[Eric Hansen]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

Canada definitely had a very unimpressive result. Not sure why some people are sugarcoating it. This is the world championships not some recreational kids soccer game. When you send one of the largest delegations but also one that is mainly uncompetitve I'm sure it gives off some sort of chess tourist impression.

[Eric Hansen]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

Everyone wants more gov't support for chess and things like that. I'm under the impression it'd be much harder to get government support for chess when the popular mentality is you just want kids to have fun and try their best and that being average on the world stage is success. Governments are more inclined to support sport programs that produce results, not memorable vacations.

[Jean Hébert]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

Everyone wants more gov't support for chess and things like that. I'm under the impression it'd be much harder to get government support for chess when the popular mentality is you just want kids to have fun and try their best and that being average on the world stage is success. Governments are more inclined to support sport programs that produce results, not memorable vacations.

Very nice post and very useful thread, thanks to Mr Plotkin! Hopefully this will lead to major changes in our youth programs.

[Vlad Drkulec]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

Everyone wants more gov't support for chess and things like that. I'm under the impression it'd be much harder to get government support for chess when the popular mentality is you just want kids to have fun and try their best and that being average on the world stage is success. Governments are more inclined to support sport programs that produce results, not memorable vacations.

At the moment, federal government support is a pipe dream. I don't think that structuring our programs in order to chase that faint hope would be very wise. Chess is not considered a sport and there are many other sports with better connections who would resist any efforts to make the pot smaller for them. Implementing the kind of restriction that you and others are suggesting last year would in all likelihood have prevented Jason Cao from winning a world championship as his pre-tournament rating was not indicative of his potential.

If you look at sports where Canadians do excel (ie hockey) you can see that this is largely due to a larger base of players with many motivated and talented coaches working to identify and improve those players with potential to move up to the elite levels.

For whatever reasons the current system is set up to promote a pathway through the CYCC in order to be able to play in the WYCC. Under this scenario is it realistic for Canada to expect a world championship every year? No. Is there any set of circumstances where Canada could expect a world championship every year? No. We are competing with countries with much stronger chess cultures where players are being trained by experienced grandmasters.

You could restrict entries to WYCC to just one player in each category but that would certainly impact on attendance at the CYCC. As it is, we don't provide much in the way of support for kids to play in the WYCC. This year was a slight exception because of the bursaries to players finishing in the top three at the very successful CYCC in Thornhill. I don't think that this made a huge difference in the attendance as the bursaries only covered a very small portion of the expense of sending kids and parents to Brazil.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

40 players suppose to give enough data, statistical error should be very low.

Suppose it was a team championship :D How would Canada do? :)

FED    ##       Po      %%

MEX	7	5.5	79
PAR	6	4	67
BRA	28	18.5	66
BOL	7	4.5	64
AUT	5	3	60
ECU	13	7	54
ARG	16	8.5	53
NOR	6	3	50
RSA	9	3.5	39
USA	9	3	33
VEN	6	2	33
PER	5	1.5	30
COL	5	1	20
RUS	7	1	14
IND	5	0.5	10

FED - opponents' federations (only those with whom CAN played 5 or more times)
## - total number of games against them
Po - points collected
%% - percentage.

[Mouse Trap]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

Coaches did a good job at Wycc. However, the best training should be given before the team left to Brazil. The plan should be done earlier.

[Halldor P. Palsson]

Canada at the WYCC 2012

Rich countries like Canada allow the WYCC to happen because extra participants in their delegations pay for the tournament.

If every country only brought its champions which the organizers have to give free room and board to the tournament would not happen. One of our roles is to pay for the tournament. We excell in that role.

Canada's showing at the 2011 WYCC was just fine. Well comparable with other Canadian chess results in recent times.

[Paul Bonham]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

Everyone wants more gov't support for chess and things like that. I'm under the impression it'd be much harder to get government support for chess when the popular mentality is you just want kids to have fun and try their best and that being average on the world stage is success. Governments are more inclined to support sport programs that produce results, not memorable vacations.

You want kids under 8 to be stressed with winning medals?

You SHOULD want kids that age and even older to be having fun and trying their best, and nothing more. Your attitude is disgusting, something I'd expect to hear from an East German Olympics coach circa 1970's.

Who cares now about those East German Olympic successes? It means nothing. But people's lives mean something.

NO WIN-AT-ALL-COSTS PRESSURE TO BE PUT ON CANADIAN CHESS KIDS!

[Nicolas Haynes]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

Everyone wants more gov't support for chess and things like that. I'm under the impression it'd be much harder to get government support for chess when the popular mentality is you just want kids to have fun and try their best and that being average on the world stage is success. Governments are more inclined to support sport programs that produce results, not memorable vacations.

I agree with your last sentance.

In practice, I think devoting large amounts of money to paying for juniors to travel to international tournaments is a huge money pit. It's an investment that the Canadian Chess community sees no return on.

The vast majority of the junior players do not achieve outstanding results, and most of them either leave the chess scene or play very irregularly later on in life. The only person the money really benefits is the junior that gets to travel somewhere and have a good time.

In Alberta they have looked at the number of juniors that played from a young age and continued playing tournament chess later on in life. There are very few people that did this, and it is still the case.

The money would be better spent on promoting chess at the community level, not paying for a kid to travel to some exotic destination and then leave the chess community in a few years... what is the benefit of that? The vast majority of juniors can find strong competition online or in their local communities (GTA, Alberta, BC, Quebec all have a solid number of masters/experts).

There are some very strong juniors (IE IM strength or stronger) that probably need to travel to play stronger players in order to develope, but these are very much the exception, and do not represent most of the juniors playing in the WYCC. I don't have a problem supporting these players financially, but they need to keep in mind that if they expect financial support they should feel some obligation (whether explicit or not) to give back to the local chess community, whether it be by organizing tournaments, playing in local tournaments, teaching etc.

[Nicolas Haynes]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

You want kids under 8 to be stressed with winning medals?

You SHOULD want kids that age and even older to be having fun and trying their best, and nothing more. Your attitude is disgusting, something I'd expect to hear from an East German Olympics coach circa 1970's.

Who cares now about those East German Olympic successes? It means nothing. But people's lives mean something.

NO WIN-AT-ALL-COSTS PRESSURE TO BE PUT ON CANADIAN CHESS KIDS!

Relax, this is a complete overreaction and offensive. The goal in chess is to checkmate the opponents king. In other words to win. Eric's point is that the government is not overly interested in paying for the vacation of a child that doesn't produce results.

What is the contribution to Canadian society for something like this? It is rather tenuous. Sorry, but a kid that is moderately good at chess doesn't deserve to travel to Greece or Turkey or wherever with taxpayer dime more than any other kid.

Competition is a natural, healthy thing, yes even for 8 year olds. I think we all realize that we are talking about a board game here, and if somebody hinges their self-esteem or sense of self worth on how well they do at it, than it's just sad, I mean step back and put things in perspective.

People should play chess as long as they enjoy it. I happen to enjoy it more when I am winning, and I think everybody else does as well. This does not mean that I cannot deal with losing or that wanting to win and be successful automatically equates to a "win at all costs" attitude. It does not, never has, never will.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

Re: Canada at the WYCC 2012

Canada's showing at the 2012 WYCC was just fine.

No it was not fine, because that tournament is not yet started :D

It was 2011 WYCC.

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: Canada at the WYCC 2012

No it was not fine, because that tournament is not yet started :D

It was 2011 WYCC.

Good point Egidijus!

Thank you for pointing this out.

Canada’s showing as a team at 2011 WYCC was just mediocre at best.

Maybe 2012 will be different, but he will just have to wait and see. :D

[Eric Hansen]

Re: Some interesting numbers about Canaian performance at WYCC-2012

You want kids under 8 to be stressed with winning medals?

You SHOULD want kids that age and even older to be having fun and trying their best, and nothing more. Your attitude is disgusting, something I'd expect to hear from an East German Olympics coach circa 1970's.

Who cares now about those East German Olympic successes? It means nothing. But people's lives mean something.

NO WIN-AT-ALL-COSTS PRESSURE TO BE PUT ON CANADIAN CHESS KIDS!

Paul,

you mad bro? Have you ever competed in a world championship in anything other than trolling? There are thousands of other tournaments where you can do that. I hope you can tell the difference.

Maybe we should open the floodgates and allow anyone to go to WYCC ? As long as they can move the pieces and have fun. FIDE allows it after all. We happen to have most parents in a financial situation who can afford to send their kids on chess vacations. Kids in most countries aren't that fortunate. What we lack in results we can make up in numbers :D