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Exactly when asked about Toronto you replied that the US is where the real action is.
Okay, now I see why you are so upset. Yes, the "real action" is in Greece. The Greek protests are directly due to the austerity measures being imposed, and so are different in focus from the OWS protests in North America. As such, I make a distinction between the two. I did not mean to diminish in any way the seriousness of the problems faced by the Greek people.
What is the latest news out of Greece? IMHO, the bankers should be taking a serious haircut on the Greek debt. (80-90%) You can't get blood out of a stone.
What is the latest news out of Greece? IMHO, the bankers should be taking a serious haircut on the Greek debt. (80-90%) You can't get blood out of a stone.
I doubt the European countries want to give Greece the money. I've been going on the assumption Greece will be allowed to default. Sometimes addition by subtraction is the best solution.
People didn't vote for the Liberals, in my opinion. The way I saw it they voted for McGuinty and his vision over Hudak. Hudak's election platform amounted to "trust me".
Personally, I could care less what the people in the other provinces think of the government which Ontario elected. It's none of their business just like it's none of Ontario's business who Quebec elects for their provincial government.
I preferred gambling on Hudak. McGuinty is a sure, proven, big time loss for the province. Normally I would've voted for a fringe party, but Dalton absolutely needed to be turfed (alas, he wasn't).
Ontario's economy, as dragged down by the Liberals, affects the whole country in a huge way, so if there ever was a case when what a provincial government does should concern the rest of the country, it is now.
If the federal goverment can't force McGuinty to mend his ways at least a little somehow (which might be the proper way for the rest of the country to properly show its concern, if you agree), protests by citizens might be a respectable option. Even with Dalton having only a minority, as the opposition seems not to be up to really challenging him, at least yet.
Last edited by Kevin Pacey; Tuesday, 14th February, 2012, 07:21 PM.
Reason: Spelling
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
The Greek parliament has apparently approved the latest measures.
No doubt, the Greek people are suffering badly. And no one likes to see others suffer. But their government, going back decades, has an extraordinary amount to answer for. Germans, for example, were told that they would NEVER have to ante up money to help other nations, under the Euro common currency system, which they then agreed to. We have seen how ridiculous that promise has turned out to be; ordinary Germans, who pay more into the Euro institutional system than citizens of any other Euro nation, are funding Greek blunders nowadays. A very high proportion of Greeks either pay no income tax or pay much less than those of other Euro nations, so all the assurances in the world, by the Greek government to the Euro institutions, on debt repayment and compliance with Euro norms on budgetary deficits, mean absolutely nothing unless Greek tax collection improves by several orders of magnitude. This will take nothing less than a societal change in Greece, where corruption of many forms is rampant. In the past several years, the Greek government, led by a succession of so-called 'leaders', has lied, repeatedly and systematically, to the Euro institutions, about their financial positions, all at times when Euro institutions have been trying to get a clear and true picture of the situation, so that they can sincerely help out Greece. One very serious and ongoing problem is that the Greek bank stocks have been sold short, several times, as the crisis has escalated and oscillated, and this has destroyed the personal wealth of many Greek bankers, government leaders, and other wealthy Greeks, leading to capital flight out of Greece on an epidemic scale. The cycle of recession, deflation, and currency depreciation has bitten very hard, but Greece was living well beyond its means in any case. With the fall of the Euro, other countries in the Euro zone are now also suffering because of Greek lies and blunders.
Quite a few experts claim that Greece should not have been admitted to the EU in the early 1980s in the first place. It may have been better to simply thrrow the Greeks overboard about four years ago, forcing them to return to the drachma, and to get their own house in order. The main difference when a sovereign nation is in deep trouble, as compared to a large corporation or even an individual facing possible bankruptcy, is that the sovereign nation can resist outside management of its financial position, as the Greeks are doing now. If German financial managers, for example, were to really run Greece for the next 20 years, using German methods, the country would likely emerge intact in the year 2025 or so. We all know that is not going to happen. Greece has an economy significantly smaller than that of Ontario, so it is quite amazing that such a small country can cause so many problems in our interconnected financial systems of today. Get used to it; we will be seeing more, for example, Spain, which has an unemployment rate of about 20 per cent, mainly from its building sector, which was overheated. Italy at least is quite a wealthy country, looking at the personal wealth of the average Italian, and most Italian government debt is held within Italy, simplifying matters greatly. Italy will make it, no doubt after undergoing a lot of pain.
I lefts parts out as I only want to comment on these two points.
Conservative leaning liberals, particularly seniors who need the social programs, might have decided to go with sure and proven McGuinty.
If the opposition still isn't up to challenging Dalton how could they have been ready to run the province last fall? The voters likely got it right.
I didn't vote. It's a chore to get to either the regular voting place or the advanced poll location.
With my own health issues, I need at least some social programs to remain in fairly good shape. However, I'm altruistic enough to realize that McGuinty is bankrupting the province, if not the country. Ontario's debt is about the same as Greece's, and Ontario has a similar population. My mother, who is a senior on a fixed income, held her nose and voted PC.
Regarding McGuinty being 'proven', in my case to my detriment he took away OHIP coverage of chiropractic treatments in his first term. He took away similar coverage of eye exams. Provincial health care hasn't exactly improved under his management. Assuming he wasn't lying as usual, he promised that this term he'd do something about the provincial deficit. If he actually keeps that promise, why wouldn't he at least entertain thoughts of cutting social programs if push came to shove?
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
Okay, now I see why you are so upset. Yes, the "real action" is in Greece. The Greek protests are directly due to the austerity measures being imposed, and so are different in focus from the OWS protests in North America. As such, I make a distinction between the two. I did not mean to diminish in any way the seriousness of the problems faced by the Greek people.
What is the latest news out of Greece? IMHO, the bankers should be taking a serious haircut on the Greek debt. (80-90%) You can't get blood out of a stone.
Upset - no. Puzzled by your North American centric view that ignores such major events in Europe - yes.
They have agreed to a 70% haircut if Greece imposes the austerity measures, which they have passed. You may not be able to get blood out of a stone but that doesn't mean the stone can keep borrowing money.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 14th February, 2012, 11:46 PM.
The Greek parliament has apparently approved the latest measures.
No doubt, the Greek people are suffering badly. And no one likes to see others suffer. But their government, going back decades, has an extraordinary amount to answer for. Germans, for example, were told that they would NEVER have to ante up money to help other nations, under the Euro common currency system, which they then agreed to. We have seen how ridiculous that promise has turned out to be; ordinary Germans, who pay more into the Euro institutional system than citizens of any other Euro nation, are funding Greek blunders nowadays. A very high proportion of Greeks either pay no income tax or pay much less than those of other Euro nations, so all the assurances in the world, by the Greek government to the Euro institutions, on debt repayment and compliance with Euro norms on budgetary deficits, mean absolutely nothing unless Greek tax collection improves by several orders of magnitude. This will take nothing less than a societal change in Greece, where corruption of many forms is rampant. In the past several years, the Greek government, led by a succession of so-called 'leaders', has lied, repeatedly and systematically, to the Euro institutions, about their financial positions, all at times when Euro institutions have been trying to get a clear and true picture of the situation, so that they can sincerely help out Greece. One very serious and ongoing problem is that the Greek bank stocks have been sold short, several times, as the crisis has escalated and oscillated, and this has destroyed the personal wealth of many Greek bankers, government leaders, and other wealthy Greeks, leading to capital flight out of Greece on an epidemic scale. The cycle of recession, deflation, and currency depreciation has bitten very hard, but Greece was living well beyond its means in any case. With the fall of the Euro, other countries in the Euro zone are now also suffering because of Greek lies and blunders.
Quite a few experts claim that Greece should not have been admitted to the EU in the early 1980s in the first place. It may have been better to simply thrrow the Greeks overboard about four years ago, forcing them to return to the drachma, and to get their own house in order. The main difference when a sovereign nation is in deep trouble, as compared to a large corporation or even an individual facing possible bankruptcy, is that the sovereign nation can resist outside management of its financial position, as the Greeks are doing now. If German financial managers, for example, were to really run Greece for the next 20 years, using German methods, the country would likely emerge intact in the year 2025 or so. We all know that is not going to happen. Greece has an economy significantly smaller than that of Ontario, so it is quite amazing that such a small country can cause so many problems in our interconnected financial systems of today. Get used to it; we will be seeing more, for example, Spain, which has an unemployment rate of about 20 per cent, mainly from its building sector, which was overheated. Italy at least is quite a wealthy country, looking at the personal wealth of the average Italian, and most Italian government debt is held within Italy, simplifying matters greatly. Italy will make it, no doubt after undergoing a lot of pain.
The Germans need to remember who paid to put Europe back together (including Germany) after they put it into ruins. Then maybe then they can stop acting as if the world owes them and they don't owe Europe anything. Canada has as many deficit and debt problems as these other countries, we just don't have a common currency to worry about.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 14th February, 2012, 11:49 PM.
Regarding McGuinty being 'proven', in my case to my detriment he took away OHIP coverage of chiropractic treatments in his first term. He took away similar coverage of eye exams. Provincial health care hasn't exactly improved under his management.
How much of this did Hudak promise to reverse?
By the way, the level of eye care which is paid for depends on your level of need. Seniors get eye exams every 2 years, I think it is.
McGuinty looks more like a Premier than does Hudak. In this day of High Definition TV it matters. It really does.
Your attempts at character assassination really do lack any credibility. As I recall, last year you tried branding me as a Marxist thug. sigh.
Your attempts at reverse characater assasination are silly. I have never called you a thug. Nor did I call you a Marxist. In my opinion, you don't seem to know enough about Marxism to be a Marxist and you don't know enough about the world outside of your immediate environs of North America to discuss world events with.
For the record I said that some of the ideology of the OWS was in line with communism. I never mentioned Marxism by name as that is only one type or flavour of communism along with Maoism, Titoism, Leninism, Stalinism, etc etc Nor did I suggest that your political beliefs were any particular doctrine. You however took great umbrage with my suggestion that there was a communist element among the OWS movement and I guess somehow decided to play the offended party on their behalf.
As you may recall you also made some jocular references to communism in my direction and were kind enough to apologize when I didn't find them all that funny given my family history of suffering under communism. So you see I take communism seriously, it's not a game of throwing around labels.
Find a post where I called you a thug or a Marxist or apologize. Find me a post where I called you violent or suggested you were prone to violence. Heck just find me a post anywhere where I accused the OWS movement of being thugs or violent.
The right to protest is an important right which ironically is often denied in communist countries - think China. It however does not extend to the right to pitch camp and defecate in the park.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Wednesday, 15th February, 2012, 02:09 AM.
In other words you have nothing to back up your character assasination of me. I never called you a Marxist thug and you know it but you don't have the character to admit when you are wrong. Run along now and go argue endlessly about climate change.
And by the way thanks for having the decency to get back to me about what was happening with the CFC audit issue I volunteered to undertake after you publically called for volunteers on this board.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Wednesday, 15th February, 2012, 03:41 AM.
How much of this [cutbacks to chiropractic and eye exam coverage, if not health care]did Hudak promise to reverse?
Hudak promised nothing much, like you said earlier. He ran a lousy campaign, as you intimated.
I half expected Hudak to make even deeper cuts to health care, if not everything else. However I was willing to risk making such a sacrifice, as the state Ontario's economy, thanks to Dalton's spending etc., is nothing short of critical at this point, long since he first took office and made cuts to chiropractic care etc.
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Murphy's law, by Edward A. Murphy Jr., USAF, Aerospace Engineer
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