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The average amateur dropping out is a negligible loss chesswise. His loss is financial : one less entry fee to come in. That loss is easily made up for with just about anybody else willing to pay a membership card and entry fees.
I would have to disagree here, Jean. As a chess organizers, I can tell you that each and every amateur willing to pay membership dues and entry fees are most precious. They are not some limitless commodity as you suggest.
Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Saturday, 3rd March, 2012, 11:02 AM.
Easy to talk if you are not a GM... Chess in Canada, atleast to my opinion, seems getting worse each year. Only one open a year that can be called professional: Quebec open (good conditions, nice playing hall, good prizes, excellent norm opportunities, fide rated) which of course is not enough to make a living just by playing. But at the same time I understand that not much can be expected if most of the organizers haven't any support by the national federation or the gouverment.
The only way a professional could try to make a living by playing is Europe, but the flight tickets hurt a lot.
So there really shouldn't be much surprise... even I don't have any ambitions anymore and have to offer lessons to try to compensate at least a bit all the time and hard work spent to become a GM.
So of course there can't be really strong and ambitious chess players in a country where 90% of the tournaments have no guaranteed prizes, no descent conditions for titled players and are not rated fide.
Best regards, Anton.
Thanks for posting Anton. I'm not sure chess is getting worse, but it remains true that professional chess tournaments in Canada are too expensive for most organizers to deliver. A decent 10 player round robin, with an appearance fee of $1000 per player plus accommodation and a modest $10,000 prize fund carries a price tag of $30-40K. This should be easily raised in a wealthy country like Canada but the reality is quite different. I hope I live to see the day when Canada can stage a few such events per year.
On the topic of FIDE ratings, I can't see any reason more event can't be rated by FIDE. It must be at least 25 years since I played in an event which was not rated by the ICCF. Some rated by the Canadian CCCA as well.
You're correct, I should have said 2000+ FIDE level tournaments, since that's the range that appeals to me.
It would still be nice to see FIDE tournaments at the other levels too.
My suggestions: contact local chess players and you may find 5-7 interested to play. chess.ca provides names who are CFC members (less hassle with fees) http://www.chess.ca/players?player_search_prov=QC
That is exactly what I said. Their value for you is essentially financial... and for you there is little beyond the figures...
Without the financial support of the amateur chess player, there would be no organized chess in Canada. That is the reality we all need to acknowledge.
ps. I find "for you there is little beyond the figures" offensive. Just because I point out the realities of chess finances, does not mean I don't appreciate other aspects of the game. The excitement of the tournament, the spirit of competition, greeting old friends, a well fought game, a beautiful combination or a clever chess puzzle. They all make up the fabric of chess, and it draws us all to the game. I am especially enjoying teaching the beginners. The excitement in their eyes when they see a smothered mate for the first time. Priceless.
If we want to keep the chess community robust, we must never again neglect the financial realities of chess in Canada. Expenses and prize funds need to be paid, and it is the amateur player who generously funds it all. It would be great to see our elite players compete more and be better compensated, but for that to happen we must expand the player base. Every amateur player who pays his membership dues and entry fees helps to grow the chess community. They are all precious, every one. It is not about the money, it is about the growth and health of the chess community.
Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Sunday, 4th March, 2012, 09:56 AM.
Without the financial support of the amateur chess player, there would be no organized chess in Canada. That is the reality we all need to acknowledge.
ps. I find "for you there is little beyond the figures" offensive. Just because I point out the realities of chess finances, does not mean I don't appreciate other aspects of the game. The excitement of the tournament, the spirit of competition, greeting old friends, a well fought game, a beautiful combination or a clever chess puzzle. They all make up the fabric of chess, and it draws us all to the game. I am especially enjoying teaching the beginners. The excitement in their eyes when they see a smothered mate for the first time. Priceless.
If we want to keep the chess community robust, we must never again neglect the financial realities of chess in Canada. Expenses and prize funds need to be paid, and it is the amateur player who generously funds it all. It would be great to see our elite players compete more and be better compensated, but for that to happen we must expand the player base. Every amateur player who pays his membership dues and entry fees helps to grow the chess community. They are all precious, every one. It is not about the money, it is about the growth and health of the chess community.
Nobody denies the value of the average player which, by the way, hardly "funds it all generously". He simply pays for what he gets and in most cases, only a very small portion (if any) of his financial input, ends up padding up a little bit the top prizes of a given tournament. Most of his money goes to pay the site (mainly benefitting the numerous class players), arbiters (mainly for class players), publicity (aimed mostly at class players) and class prizes, which in some cases come partly from other more numerous sections! There is absolutely no generosity involved here, and none is expected. In many cases the top section of a weekender is one of the most self sufficient of all, with very little "generosity" coming from lower sections. You for obvious reasons identify with the average player (which in itself is OK) and calling yourself "generous" is understandably a good feeling which unfortunately cannot survive even a quick scrutiny.
In any cases the average player's contribution to the chess world is one sided and can easily be measured in dollar and cents. But you fail to understand that losing a Lesiège, a Bluvshtein or a Kovalyov is a far more serious loss then losing a guy whose main contribution is to pay his dues. No dues can make up for the kind of loss suffered when a top player disappears from chess(even if that does not prevent amateur X to enjoy what he thinks is a beautiful combination ).
My suggestions: contact local chess players and you may find 5-7 interested to play. chess.ca provides names who are CFC members (less hassle with fees) http://www.chess.ca/players?player_search_prov=QC
What are the requirements to have a tournament (even a small 8-player RR for example) rated by FIDE? How many of the players have to have an existing FIDE rating? I cannot imagine 8 players could get together all with no existing FIDE rating... that means you have to convince some players with existing ratings to participate.
What are the requirements to have a tournament (even a small 8-player RR for example) rated by FIDE? How many of the players have to have an existing FIDE rating? I cannot imagine 8 players could get together all with no existing FIDE rating... that means you have to convince some players with existing ratings to participate.
You pretty much need 2/3 of the players to already be FIDE rated in a Swiss, preferably more.
Swiss tournaments are actually pretty cheap, with just a $2.20 FIDE rating fee (if I remember correctly).
A round-robin is expensive ($100 FIDE rating fee, covering all players), and is best 9 rounds (guaranteeing a FIDE rating for everyone after), so 10 players. At least this can be done with none previously rated.
The additional problem from where I am is to then convince each of those players to also pay the CFC their cut ($54 protection money to ensure that the results can reach the FIDE website).
In many cases the top section of a weekender is one of the most self sufficient of all, with very little "generosity" coming from lower sections.
I believe you are misinformed here. Take for example, the Hamilton Summer Open 2011.
Top Guns section - Entry fees collected $ 530, Prize fund $ 750.
I think in the majority of weekenders, it is the class sections who pay the lions share of the costs, and the top sections who receive the lions share of the prizes. Most players consider that reasonable and are okay with it. I do believe in class sections prizes. Everyone should have a chance to win something. Myself, I am happy enough fighting for a trophy.
Take for example the ProAm tournaments in Guelph. Top section entry is $60, with $55 returned in cash prizes. Class sections pay $40 and compete for trophies, no cash prizes at all. It is clear here who is covering the tournament expenses.
They may exist, but can you name me one tournament where the top section is self sufficient?
Last edited by Bob Gillanders; Sunday, 4th March, 2012, 01:20 PM.
I believe you are misinformed here. Take for example, the Hamilton Summer Open 2011.
Top Guns section - Entry fees collected $ 530, Prize fund $ 750.
I think in the majority of weekenders, it is the class sections who pay the lions share of the costs, and the top sections who receive the lions share of the prizes. Most players consider that reasonable and are okay with it. I do believe in class sections prizes. Everyone should have a chance to win something. Myself, I am happy enough fighting for a trophy.
Take for example the ProAm tournaments in Guelph. Top section entry is $60, with $55 returned in cash prizes. Class sections pay $40 and compete for trophies, no cash prizes at all. It is clear here who is covering the tournament expenses.
They may exist, but can you name me one tournament where the top section is self sufficient?
I agree with you that it's usually the lower sections that subsidize the upper sections.
I do agree with Jean though that losing a 2400 player is a bigger blow than losing a 1600 (because there are more 1600s and 2400 require a special sauce to create).
Personally, I'd love to see us do everything we can to get more 1600s into the game, so they can continue to subsidize prize pools for 2500s, so that I can get destroyed by them and learn from it.
As you alluded to as well (where you said most were OK with the subsidizing), I would pay $10 just to watch a 2500 analyze a game with a 2400. I think I'd gain points by osmosis.
... He simply pays for what he gets and in most cases, only a very small portion (if any) of his financial input, ends up padding up a little bit the top prizes of a given tournament......... In many cases the top section of a weekender is one of the most self sufficient of all, with very little "generosity" coming from lower sections. .......
Factually false from beginning to end.
As to the "most valuable" contribution of those strong players, I don't particularly care for the hero worship thing personally. You overstate their importance and contribution and denigrate those you consider beneath you.
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