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Seems you are right - Look at last year's Toronto Closed ( this year, the tournament is so wobbly that GTCL doesn't even have a bid for the 2012 tournament as far as I've heard ). The Championship section is an 8-player round robin over 7 consective weekends ( not sure but I think it was played on Sunday afternoons ). I believe the prize fund is quite modest:
2011 Toronto Closed Ch
Date Director Region Type
2011-04-03 Vladimir Birarov ON R
# Player Old Perf New High Results Total
1 Plotkin, Victor 2403 2475 2422 2436 X = 1 1 = 1 0 1 5.0
2 Kleinman, Michael 2246 2440 2279 2299 = X 0 = 1 = 1 1 4.5
3 Sapozhnikov, Roman 2459 2353 2443 2477 0 1 X 0 = 1 = 1 4.0
4 Birarov, Vladimir 2257 2325 2267 2267 0 = 1 X 1 = 0 = 3.5
5 Guo, Josh 2263 2324 2272 2272 = 0 = 0 X = 1 1 3.5
6 Aronov, Yuri 2313 2317 2313 2320 0 = 0 = = X 1 1 3.5
7 Barron, Michael 2340 2256 2328 2377 1 0 = 1 0 0 X = 3.0
8 Moffat, Andrei 2248 2040 2220 2321 0 0 0 = 0 0 = X 1.0
5/8 players over 2300, which is not too shabby. But in Toronto, one would hope for much better.
Here are the potential top players ( from the 2012 top Ontario list, active in the last five years ):
1 Noritsyn, Nikolay Richmond Hill, ON 2661 2012-02-20
2 Bluvshtein, Mark Toronto, ON 2632 2011-07-17
3 Gerzhoy, Leonid Toronto, ON 2592 2011-12-18
4 Samsonkin, Artiom Toronto, ON 2568 2012-02-20
6 Sapozhnikov, Roman Richmond Hill, ON 2528 2012-02-20
7 Zugic, Igor Toronto, ON 2516 2008-09-02
8 Thavandiran, Shiyam Toronto, ON 2501 2012-01-15
11 Teplitsky, Yan Markham, ON 2473 2010-09-06
12 Quan, Zhe Richmond Hill, ON 2462 2009-07-19
13 Tayar, Jonathan Toronto, ON 2462 2011-09-05
15 Cummings, David Toronto, ON 2439 2012-01-23
17 Kleinman, Michael Toronto, ON 2415 2012-02-20
18 Hambleton, Aman Toronto, ON 2414 2012-02-20
19 Livshits, Ron Pickering, ON 2412 2009-08-16
20 Martchenko, Alexander Etobicoke, ON 2412 2011-07-30
Now some of these are university students away from Toronto for school, and would not be able to attend a regular Toronto weekly tournament. And maybe a few have weekend commitments that would prevent them playing, and a few are semi-retired at least. But all are over 2400! GTCL only attracted 2 from this list: Roman Sapozhnikov and Michael Kleinman ( who wouldn't have been on the list last year ). So obviously top players don't play if there is no money. So much for attempting strong-player FIDE tournaments on a shoe-string.
Bob A.
Looking at this year's Toronto Closed, where the prize fund is again quite modest, I don't find support for the hypothesis you're putting forward.
I took the top 50 in Ontario, active in the past year (and not officially retired), then eliminated the non-Toronto players, and ended up with a list of 30-odd, with ratings down to about 2230.
This rating cut-off includes the top seven players registered in our Championship section.
Obviously, participation is not universal - some people have family, work, or school commitments (or health issues) and can't play in every elite FIDE event that comes their way - but it seems that interest is fairly randomly distributed.
1 Noritsyn, Nikolay 2661
2 Gerzhoy, Leonid 2592
3 Samsonkin, Artiom 2568 4 Sapozhnikov, Roman 2528 5 Thavandiran, Shiyam 2501
6 Tayar, Jonathan 2462
7 Cummings, David 2439
8 Hambleton, Aman 2414
9 Martchenko, Alexander 2412
10 Calugar, Arthur 2404 11 Kleinman, Michael 2398 12 Milicevic, Goran 2393 13 Plotkin, Victor 2376 14 Stevens, Christian 2348
15 Yuan, Yuanling 2328
16 Puri, Vinny 2320 17 Humphreys, Michael 2317 18 Ochkoos, Jura 2309
19 Pedersen, Rune 2294
20 Dougherty, Michael 2293
21 Chung, Kevin 2286
22 Yee, Lorne 2282
23 Khoudgarian, Natalia 2278 24 Renteria, Rolando 2263
25 Barron, Michael 2262
26 Birarov, Vladimir 2261 27 Gusev, Nikita 2256
28 Henry, Liam 2254
29 Campbell, Brett 2251
30 Gelis, Paul 2251
31 Zeromskis, Egidijus 2247
32 Filipovich, David 2233
33 Wright, John 2232
Last edited by Marcus Wilker; Monday, 19 March, 2012, 09:55 AM.
This kind of tournaments should be great for both "professionals" and begginers who really want to learn. It's really sad seeing kids playing this nonsense under 2000 or 1600 tournaments
Open tournaments would also eliminate the greedy cheaters you find in
the section tournaments:
Last year in the 2011 Canadian Open U 2000 section, I was up material, but
in a critical position and short of time when two pals of my opponent set up
camp just outside my board just chatting away, when I blundered. One of
the two pals would not even write down all of his moves when later I played
him, when I lost on time.
When I complained to TD Aris when yet another one of my opponents
stopped writing moves altogether, he would not even check his scoresheet,
and just took him at his word. That game was drawn.
The 2010 Canadian Open, a single open section, was much more enjoyable
for that reason, but TDs must be aware of the possibility of last round
fixing. and investigate any complaints. Best is to pair players trying to win
the same section prizes in the last round.
I agree, it would be interesting to have a big Open tournament. However, it wouldn't fit in a week-end. Having only one section and 5 rounds would never work. Also, a big Open in the middle of the year would probably not attract a lot of people, except if it is during a long week-end.
Anyway, thanks for giving your opinion. I'll try to forward the information to organizers who might be interested into organizing such a tournament.
Yes, that's why I say the rounds should start at 7pm on regular days. For instance a 7 rounds tourney: thursday 7pm, friday 7pm, saturday double round sunday double round, monday last round (and the most important one) 7pm (I personally played many of these in Argentina, and they were very succeful).
If an organizer wants a weekend tournament why not make it a rapid or even better a 1 hour per player and again 7 rounds. Who cares if it's classic chess or not if in both cases these weekend tournaments aren't rated fide, this is not perfect but it's a nice and inexpensive start. This kind of tournaments should be great for both "professionals" and begginers who really want to learn. It's really sad seeing kids playing this nonsense under 2000 or 1600 tournaments, they learn nothing at all and if things keep going like this they never will. As I mentioned before class prizes are very important but only if it's a one big open with all levels. For players like me only the first two rounds would be " easy games" the remaining 5 or 7 would be like playing the typical 2000 and up section tournament.
No need for a closed tournament, specially if it's only one per year. I think to begin it would be far better stop doing this nonsense 1200, 1600, 2000 sections and start organizing serious tournaments, like for instance a big Open with atleast $2000 for first, nine or seven rounds, and fide rated. What kind of progress could there be if begginers play against begginers and masters play against masters, and at the end everyone gets the same prize. Even a simple begginer that only knows how to move pieces would prefer to see a one tournament with descent prizes than a bunch of nonsense tournaments with less or equal to $1000 for first. And of course class prizes in any tourney are very important too... Just look at any open in Spain even when there are 1000 euros for first there are easily more than 100 players attending, almost all opens there are a one big tournament, 9 rounds, fide rated. The rounds could start at around 7pm and double round on weekends and all games 1:30 with 30 sec increment or 2 hours to finish. It doesn't sound impossible, but of course sponsorship is important... When organizers do tournaments depending only on the registration fee, this is not a real chess tournament, it's an aberration!
Best regards, Anton.
I agree, it would be interesting to have a big Open tournament. However, it wouldn't fit in a week-end. Having only one section and 5 rounds would never work. Also, a big Open in the middle of the year would probably not attract a lot of people, except if it is during a long week-end.
Anyway, thanks for giving your opinion. I'll try to forward the information to organizers who might be interested into organizing such a tournament.
Thanks for posting Anton. I'm not sure chess is getting worse, but it remains true that professional chess tournaments in Canada are too expensive for most organizers to deliver. A decent 10 player round robin, with an appearance fee of $1000 per player plus accommodation and a modest $10,000 prize fund carries a price tag of $30-40K. This should be easily raised in a wealthy country like Canada but the reality is quite different. I hope I live to see the day when Canada can stage a few such events per year.
No need for a closed tournament, specially if it's only one per year. I think to begin it would be far better stop doing this nonsense 1200, 1600, 2000 sections and start organizing serious tournaments, like for instance a big Open with atleast $2000 for first, nine or seven rounds, and fide rated. What kind of progress could there be if begginers play against begginers and masters play against masters, and at the end everyone gets the same prize. Even a simple begginer that only knows how to move pieces would prefer to see a one tournament with descent prizes than a bunch of nonsense tournaments with less or equal to $1000 for first. And of course class prizes in any tourney are very important too... Just look at any open in Spain even when there are 1000 euros for first there are easily more than 100 players attending, almost all opens there are a one big tournament, 9 rounds, fide rated. The rounds could start at around 7pm and double round on weekends and all games 1:30 with 30 sec increment or 2 hours to finish. It doesn't sound impossible, but of course sponsorship is important... When organizers do tournaments depending only on the registration fee, this is not a real chess tournament, it's an aberration!
Ah... it works BETTER than expected in a way: the posts are still there and the header is shown, but if you click on the post the forum reminds you that person is on your ignore list...
Perhaps it is a good thing to be able to see that someone in the ignore list has posted (something-all you see is the subject line) in the rare case that it might be on topic.
I just found a useful tool in my Control Panel ("User CP">"Settings and Options">"Edit ignore list"). I found when I add some names to this list (and I can always remove them, later) it makes the thread easier to follow :p
Have you actually tried this? Do you have to logout/login to make it happen?
What I noticed is that the posts are still there - perhaps the ignore list only applies to new posts?
I just found a useful tool in my Control Panel ("User CP">"Settings and Options">"Edit ignore list"). I found when I add some names to this list (and I can always remove them, later) it makes the thread easier to follow :p
Thanks for pointing out that important technique...
I just hope it doesn't reach the point where it would be easier and quicker to have instead a list of poster to read (a not-ignore list)
Really now you are going to taunt me because I put my education on hold to look after my father for years while I worked full time? Instead of putting him in a nursing home. Is there no limit to how ignorant and insulting you will get? You really are a tough guy ain't ya? During that time I also was able to find time to volunteer with Marco, Rodney, Oscar and Kyle with the YMCA program. According to you though we were all wasting our time. However, now I'm also being attacked by you because I didn't have sufficient time to carry the whole program myself when no one else was willing to step up to the plate.
Despite your insinuations I never talk to people behind their back. I tell them exactly how I feel either in person or on Chesstalk. You for example are an ignorant, boorish, lying, vulgar, insulting punk with zero people skills. But in no way should you feel that I'm attacking you by saying so, to borrow your standard line.
For someone who was not able to graduate from Mohawk college, has never been able to hold down a job and has always been finanically supported by his mother I would think twice before attacking the job record of someone who has almost as many years of work experience as you have been alive.
To answer your other question, yes completing my education in France has been a terrific experience. In today's area of laptops I can always find a minute or two to address insults coming from you though.
Yes, Kitich, you are off topic and you the one started it, by hijacking this thread. Marcus, Alan, myself and everyone here can't see that you are making any sense with your statements. Please stop, so others can find real conversation here. Please be respectful to others and especially elders. :p
You also hijacking other important thread, such as 'Why did the CFC and FQE relationship fall apart?'. Please stop it!
If you would like to continue making clown of yourself, and talk about how you enjoy insulting others and especially putting down elderly, please start your own thread and someone might join to discuss it with you your wrong doing. :D
Last edited by Mikhail Egorov; Thursday, 8 March, 2012, 03:27 PM.
Mikhail, Zeljko, you're off topic. Please stop so I can find the real conversation.
I just found a useful tool in my Control Panel ("User CP">"Settings and Options">"Edit ignore list"). I found when I add some names to this list (and I can always remove them, later) it makes the thread easier to follow :p
Yes, it is called insult everyone on chesstalk zone lol. :D
There's really no point in arguing with you. You just insult everyone and everything. Every forum has insulter like you, who keep posts garbage and keep insulting others. In your case you also doing outside of the forum. ;)
How is your MBA program going. Did you finish it yet? How long did it take you. 10 years? Did you get a job?
I guess not, since you post here 24/7 and insult others. :D
Really now you are going to taunt me because I put my education on hold to look after my father for years while I worked full time? Instead of putting him in a nursing home. Is there no limit to how ignorant and insulting you will get? You really are a tough guy ain't ya? During that time I also was able to find time to volunteer with Marco, Rodney, Oscar and Kyle with the YMCA program. According to you though we were all wasting our time. However, now I'm also being attacked by you because I didn't have sufficient time to carry the whole program myself when no one else was willing to step up to the plate.
Despite your insinuations I never talk to people behind their back. I tell them exactly how I feel either in person or on Chesstalk. You for example are an ignorant, boorish, lying, vulgar, insulting punk with zero people skills. But in no way should you feel that I'm attacking you by saying so, to borrow your standard line.
For someone who was not able to graduate from Mohawk college, has never been able to hold down a job and has always been finanically supported by his mother I would think twice before attacking the job record of someone who has almost as many years of work experience as you have been alive.
To answer your other question, yes completing my education in France has been a terrific experience. In today's area of laptops I can always find a minute or two to address insults coming from you though.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Thursday, 8 March, 2012, 12:58 PM.
Do you seriously not realize I'm in a different time zone than you are? I did mention at least once that I'm in France. It's time to wake up over here. You are the one staying up until the small hours spouting a lot of hate and nonsense bringing up an argument that happened a decade ago and a YMCA program that ended 7 years ago. An argument that I had long forgotten about. It will be interesting to see who you attack next. Will it be Plotkin or Noritsyn again next or me again or will you find someone new? My guess is that the next time you fear being shown to be inadequate to be a paid coach that you'll be off attacking someone again.
Yes, it is called insult everyone on chesstalk zone lol. :D
There's really no point in arguing with you. You just insult everyone and everything. Every forum has insulter like you, who keep posts garbage and keep insulting others. In your case you also doing outside of the forum. ;)
How is your MBA program going. Did you finish it yet? How long did it take you. 10 years? Did you get a job?
I guess not, since you post here 24/7 and insult others. :D
Last edited by Mikhail Egorov; Thursday, 8 March, 2012, 10:06 AM.
Since you are a chess event organizer, Alex, I write this with the greatest of respect and I hope that at least a few of the points I will make here will not be in vain.
First of all, with respect to tournaments in Greece or any other European country: we have to recognize a fundamental difference in the culture that affects chess. In Europe, the population has time on their hands. Much, much more so than in North America. Greece is a prime example: most of the citizenry works for government and has very generous paid time off (which unfortunately for them, they are beginning to lose that now because they've been living on borrowed time and other people's money, and Greece is but the first flashpoint in a massive change called "austerity" coming to Europe).
So what does that mean for chess events? It means the people there up to now have been able to afford a much more relaxed lifestyle, and so time spent playing or even watching chess has been much more available. It affects the mentality. People will spend money to enter a chess event even if they can't win that money back, because they have time to kill and so do many other people, so that chess events become SOCIAL events. In North America, for the most part chess events are NOT PRIMARILY social events. Time is more precious here, free time is much less available, and chess takes up valuable time. So Alex, if I may suggest, don't waste effort trying to equate chess events in North America to chess events in Europe. The differences cannot be erased. In fact, with austerity coming, the reverse change will be happening. Chess events in Europe will end up becoming more like chess events in North America. It is sad, but the likes of Jean Hebert will continue to wear blinders and believe that European chess standards can be imported into North America. Everything Jean posts here about the sad state of chess in Canada merely showcases his complete lack of understanding. Notice I'm not saying he is wrong as to the problems, I'm saying that he doesn't understand the forces behind the problems and why they simply can't be overcome.
There are only so many people (in North America) who will be playing chess for purely love of the game. That number of people will continue to remain very very low for the forseeable future. Thus Alex, as an organizer you are not going to grow your events (or anyone else's) by believing that you can in any way attract more and more people with such a philosophy. You can't make people love chess (in its present form). Most people don't love chess in its present form and never will.
I can help you understand why weak chess players would expect to make money in chess, and I can explain it with one word: poker. There are plenty of weak poker players making money in poker, because poker doesn't rely on pure skill. Poker allows luck to determine results. If chess did the same, it would have the same financial success as poker. Since chess allows no luck in determining results, chess has the opposite financial result as poker: a shrinking base of the pyramind as players at the base realize they have no hope of advancing and also realize that the game takes inordinate amounts of their precious non-European time. The base is shrinking more and more as the requirement for opening theory knowledge plays a greater and greater part in chess results.
To counteract this, it becomes necessary in North American tourament chess to offer class prizes to keep the base interested. If you continue just taking money from the base and handing it to the elite, you will shrink organized chess in North America, guaranteed. So yes, Alex, you are correct to say the weak should not expect to ever make money in chess, as long as you are willing to also see organized chess decline. It's the simple reality.
I and some other people are working to bring some change to the North American chess scene. What we are planning is quite dramatic, and it will take time to put in motion. The year 2013, assuming we survive the Mayan calendar, the European collapse, and war with Iran, promises to be the most exciting in modern chess history, and not just for North America either. To all those anguishing about the sorry state of affairs for chess players in North America, I can only say, be patient, help is coming. Rome wasn't built in a day.
For chess players who want to prepare for what is coming: stop studying chess openings, your best money opportunities will not lie with playing standard chess games. Instead, study chess tactics. The wilder and crazier the tactics, the better.
Of course, if you love a good long strategic game of standard chess and don't mind paying money to the elite and spending your weekends in long chess battles, you have my blessing and I hope organizers like Alex will continue to provide you the opportunities to play the game you love.
Paul,
You put forward some different points and perspectives, but forgive me for not responding to all the arguments in your post.
As I stated very clearly, I was writing as a chess player. Not as an organizer.
When I helped organize, I think I understood the community well enough to know that my ideas as a player may be somewhat utopian or unique. They sometimes correspond to the majority of the community's, other times they don't. My guess is that any organizer out there will try to push for some ideas but also compromise with the demands of the community he/she is dealing with.
I like your poker example, it clearly illustrates why weak players think they have a shot at winning money. They sometimes do! A relatively weaker poker player can win a big open tournament with some luck. This is a lot less likely in chess. Maybe this is why poker is more popular, who knows :D
I am rather ignorant when it comes to poker, but it seems to me that anyone can enter any tournament, and it's nearly impossible to determine the level of a playing field at the start of each tournament. So in that sense, there may not be classes / sections like in chess.
Tournament chess doesn't seem to be on the decline, or at least I haven't seen any compelling evidence that such is the case in the past decade while I've been active in it.
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