FIDE level chess in Canada

[Bob Armstrong]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

If organizers created one game a day tournaments with substantial prize funds, I'm sure top players would play. Neither of those is realistic on a regular basis, so you are left with the situation we have.

Hi David:

Seems you are right - Look at last year's Toronto Closed ( this year, the tournament is so wobbly that GTCL doesn't even have a bid for the 2012 tournament as far as I've heard ). The Championship section is an 8-player round robin over 7 consective weekends ( not sure but I think it was played on Sunday afternoons ). I believe the prize fund is quite modest:

2011 Toronto Closed Ch
Date Director Region Type
2011-04-03 Vladimir Birarov ON R

# Player Old Perf New High Results Total

1 Plotkin, Victor 2403 2475 2422 2436 X = 1 1 = 1 0 1 5.0
2 Kleinman, Michael 2246 2440 2279 2299 = X 0 = 1 = 1 1 4.5
3 Sapozhnikov, Roman 2459 2353 2443 2477 0 1 X 0 = 1 = 1 4.0
4 Birarov, Vladimir 2257 2325 2267 2267 0 = 1 X 1 = 0 = 3.5
5 Guo, Josh 2263 2324 2272 2272 = 0 = 0 X = 1 1 3.5
6 Aronov, Yuri 2313 2317 2313 2320 0 = 0 = = X 1 1 3.5
7 Barron, Michael 2340 2256 2328 2377 1 0 = 1 0 0 X = 3.0
8 Moffat, Andrei 2248 2040 2220 2321 0 0 0 = 0 0 = X 1.0

5/8 players over 2300, which is not too shabby. But in Toronto, one would hope for much better.

Here are the potential top players ( from the 2012 top Ontario list, active in the last five years ):

1 Noritsyn, Nikolay Richmond Hill, ON 2661 2012-02-20
2 Bluvshtein, Mark Toronto, ON 2632 2011-07-17
3 Gerzhoy, Leonid Toronto, ON 2592 2011-12-18
4 Samsonkin, Artiom Toronto, ON 2568 2012-02-20
6 Sapozhnikov, Roman Richmond Hill, ON 2528 2012-02-20
7 Zugic, Igor Toronto, ON 2516 2008-09-02
8 Thavandiran, Shiyam Toronto, ON 2501 2012-01-15
11 Teplitsky, Yan Markham, ON 2473 2010-09-06
12 Quan, Zhe Richmond Hill, ON 2462 2009-07-19
13 Tayar, Jonathan Toronto, ON 2462 2011-09-05
15 Cummings, David Toronto, ON 2439 2012-01-23
17 Kleinman, Michael Toronto, ON 2415 2012-02-20
18 Hambleton, Aman Toronto, ON 2414 2012-02-20
19 Livshits, Ron Pickering, ON 2412 2009-08-16
20 Martchenko, Alexander Etobicoke, ON 2412 2011-07-30

Now some of these are university students away from Toronto for school, and would not be able to attend a regular Toronto weekly tournament. And maybe a few have weekend commitments that would prevent them playing, and a few are semi-retired at least. But all are over 2400! GTCL only attracted 2 from this list: Roman Sapozhnikov and Michael Kleinman ( who wouldn't have been on the list last year ). So obviously top players don't play if there is no money. So much for attempting strong-player FIDE tournaments on a shoe-string.

Bob A.

[Roger Patterson]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

further to my point - see the graph below which plots the percentage of active players in 2006 who were active in 2010.9 to 2011.9 by rating. Fairly clearly, the problem is NOT that stronger players are preferentially dropping out.

All my chess life, people have been worrying about why the strong players drop out. It's not the problem.

[David Ottosen]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Cost of participation has little or nothing to do with Spraggett's list - most tourneys give GM/IM players free or discounted entries.

I don't see how lack of affiliation between FQE/CFC has anything to do with it either; the two organizations affiliating doesn't make the distance from Toronto to Montreal any shorter.

Your last point is the only one - it's just a lack of well funded FIDE tournaments, and that's simply due to circumstances. If top players wanted to play 5 game weekend swisses funded by entry fees, I'm sure organizers would do them. If organizers created one game a day tournaments with substantial prize funds, I'm sure top players would play. Neither of those is realistic on a regular basis, so you are left with the situation we have.

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

It is frequently bemoaned that top players don't play anymore or under participate in tournaments.

In fact, strong players are over represented in almost any tournament compared to their percentage of the general chess playing population. And as the general chess population also has a turnover or drop out rate of the order of 30% a year, I have yet to see any data that shows top players are any worse than this.

Fact is, the top players are visilble and we have lists of them with participation and so anecdoteally people can see that a certain top player no longer is active and wonder why but no one is remembering all those 1600 players who don't play any more either.

I bemoan the absence of such players as well.
I wish there was more effort to make chess inclusive for people that play occasionally, as well as poor people that would like to play. Chess is seeming like a game that is outside the financial reach of many.

Denton

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: Re : FIDE level chess in Canada

As explained in the other thread, the lack of FIDE tournaments in Quebec is the consequence of the separation of the CFC and the FQE. Actually, FIDE rating is probably the biggest consequence for Quebec. However, many surveys showed that most people prefered to have a healthy financial situation, more tournaments and more service instead of a FIDE rating. It is very sad for players who wish to have a FIDE rating, like I do, but we can't do much about it. Organizing FIDE rated tournaments costs a lot of money (FQE, CFC and FIDE rating fees + FQE and CFC membership), so not many organizers are not ready to pay for it. However, the FQE has made considerable efforts in promoting the organization of FIDE rating tournaments (even paying itself a part of the CFC membership card!). However, the fact is that many players are simply not ready to pay twice the entry fee to have a FIDE rating.
The only FIDE rated tournaments in Quebec are the most prestigious ones, such as the Quebec Open, the Montreal Open and the upcoming Canadian Closed.

For what is of the participation outside of Quebec, I can't really tell. I have always been interested into playing in Ontario, but I couldn't find a tournament where transportation was easy (coming by train or bus and finding a reasonnable hotel in walking distance from the tournament site).
Also, I guess that the best ways to attract masters is simply to have bigger prizes and better conditions. In Quebec, many tournaments are quite strong, with sometimes 2 grandmasters and a few IMs. Of course, it won't prevent some players (such as Lesiege) to stop playing.

It would be nice to see the CFC move to a service organization instead of a membership organization.

Where in Quebec do you live? I'm planning to go to Ottawa for every FIDE tournament that they have up there. If you're in the Montreal area you can get a ride with me.

Unfortunately I can't do much for staying location, since I hang out at the wife's parents' house.

Denton

[Roger Patterson]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

It is frequently bemoaned that top players don't play anymore or under participate in tournaments.

In fact, strong players are over represented in almost any tournament compared to their percentage of the general chess playing population. And as the general chess population also has a turnover or drop out rate of the order of 30% a year, I have yet to see any data that shows top players are any worse than this.

Fact is, the top players are visilble and we have lists of them with participation and so anecdoteally people can see that a certain top player no longer is active and wonder why but no one is remembering all those 1600 players who don't play any more either.

[Felix Dumont]

Re : FIDE level chess in Canada

As explained in the other thread, the lack of FIDE tournaments in Quebec is the consequence of the separation of the CFC and the FQE. Actually, FIDE rating is probably the biggest consequence for Quebec. However, many surveys showed that most people prefered to have a healthy financial situation, more tournaments and more service instead of a FIDE rating. It is very sad for players who wish to have a FIDE rating, like I do, but we can't do much about it. Organizing FIDE rated tournaments costs a lot of money (FQE, CFC and FIDE rating fees + FQE and CFC membership), so not many organizers are not ready to pay for it. However, the FQE has made considerable efforts in promoting the organization of FIDE rating tournaments (even paying itself a part of the CFC membership card!). However, the fact is that many players are simply not ready to pay twice the entry fee to have a FIDE rating.
The only FIDE rated tournaments in Quebec are the most prestigious ones, such as the Quebec Open, the Montreal Open and the upcoming Canadian Closed.

For what is of the participation outside of Quebec, I can't really tell. I have always been interested into playing in Ontario, but I couldn't find a tournament where transportation was easy (coming by train or bus and finding a reasonnable hotel in walking distance from the tournament site).
Also, I guess that the best ways to attract masters is simply to have bigger prizes and better conditions. In Quebec, many tournaments are quite strong, with sometimes 2 grandmasters and a few IMs. Of course, it won't prevent some players (such as Lesiege) to stop playing.

[Denton Cockburn]

Kevin Spraggett has an article up about the lack of participation of top FIDE players in tournaments (or about the lack of FIDE tournaments, either seems appropriate).

http://kevinspraggett.blogspot.com/2012/03/end-of-chess-in-canada.html

What do you believe to be the cause of these phenomenons and what possible solutions?

As usual, I think the high cost of participation makes the CFC unappealing for people who can't play 30+ games per year.

Secondly, I think the lack of affiliation between the CFC and FQE is also a big problem, as a lot of strong Quebec players will not travel that far to play games.

Third, There aren't many FIDE level tournaments. It would be nice to have at least 1 FIDE level tournament per week in the big provinces.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?