FIDE level chess in Canada

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Our Hamilton club is getting stronger and our juniors filling up ranks as one of the strongest juniors in Canada and it continues to be growing every year. Last year Hamilton Club set a new milestone, as we crowned our new youngest Hamilton City Champion!

As I remember in the past, that you were in charge of Hamilton Junior Chess Club in around 2004-2005 years. I remember you quite! Maybe because you realized you were doing a good job and left Hamilton juniors on their own.

Maybe, because of that, Hamilton Club was so tiny at that time. :D

You obviously don't remember the 1970's and how much bigger the club was back then. It was huge. The high school championship we had back then featured about 30 students incluing myself. The high school league had at least 75 of us playing. The adult club met in a whole floor at first place, had some very strong players and required a large separate room for the tournaments. I'm assuming you were two years old or not in Canada back then. I've seen the club back then and I've seen it over the years since and it does not even come close to being what it was.

Let's count the number other points on which you are wrong:

I was not in charge of the Hamilton Junior Chess Club. It was a YMCA program where the YMCA provided the facilities and the publicity. It was at the request of the YMCA that the program was started. We were required to be police cleared to work with young children as YMCA volunteers. The program met on Saturday mornings apart from any meeting time of the Hamilton club and the Hamilton club was not even meeting in the YMCA any longer. The Hamilton club contributed not a cent to the endeavour. I was not in charge, it was a group effort. Five of us from the Hamilton club were involved in helping out for 3 years. One person moved to another city for work, one had a second child, one left for university etc. I was then left as the only volunteer. When I asked for volunteers from the Hamilton club the response was complete lack of interest. Funny given that you are now claiming that it was the Hamilton Junior Chess Club. I then notifed the YMCA that I too was ending my participaton in the program as of the following year. Part of my reason was that Hal Bond was no longer running his excellent junior tournaments in Burlington so that there was no longer that great outlet for the YMCA juniors to participate in.

I'm glad to hear that the juniors at the Hamilton club are doing well. I don't measure the success of a program by your criteria though. The YMCA program ran for 3 years, the juniors enjoyed it. That's all I was concerned about at the time.

Now go ahead and do one of your famous Egorov tirades against me just because I used to volunteer my time. Ironically I'm sure because you were one of the Hamilton club members who had no interest in stepping forward back then. I'm assuming that Egorov must be paid or Egorov stays home. Am I right? Have you ever volunteered your time with any juniors?

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Clubs that used to be huge and now tiny such as Hamilton.

Our Hamilton club is getting stronger and our juniors filling up ranks as one of the strongest juniors in Canada and it continues to be growing every year. Last year Hamilton Club set a new milestone, as we crowned our new youngest Hamilton City Champion!

As I remember in the past, that you were in charge of Hamilton Junior Chess Club in around 2004-2005 years. I remember you quite! Maybe because you realized you were doing a good job and left Hamilton juniors on their own.

Maybe, because of that, Hamilton Club was so tiny at that time. :D

[Duncan Smith]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

I believe we are witnessing a fundamental shift in interests in Canada, where almost no one believes in the FIDE system anymore. Veterans who grew up with this system are trying to keep it going, but many players are clearly voting that the system "as is" isn't worth their time and effort. Nowhere more glaring is this then amongst the FIDE titled players that would normally be the active stars in a healthy system.

So, beyond the odd player like Bator that clearly loves to play, or maybe an Eric Hanson ( will he remain interested now he has gotten a better glimpse of the top FIDE events ? ), there just aren't players who you can attract to events.

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

He can see when someone is constantly winding up and taking shots at other people.

It is nice that you share your personal opinion once again with us, which does not make any sense. :D

Unfortunately, it is completely irrelevant, since you have not evidence or proof to you claims. ;)

[Jean Hébert]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

There is not one would be tournament player waiting to take the place of any player who drops out. Do you not get that chess participation has been in decline since the 1970's? Clubs that used to be huge and now tiny such as Hamilton. Do you also not get that sponsors want to reach a lot of people and get a lot of exposure? Do you also not get that the USSR system was successful because they had plenty of players at all levels? Just to reach a point of being able to play a reasonable game in a tournament is a fairly good accomplishment for people. Many players come out to clubs only to stop going because they find they are not ready to play in tournaments.

Not sure what point(s) exactly you are trying to make besides trying to convey to all that you must find a way to contradict me in every which way possible. That part is pretty clear... :) Yes, to have more players would be better than having fewer players. And then... ?

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

You fail to grasp that a high rated player dropping out of chess is a big loss for the community, especially if he writes, teaches and shares his knowledge and experience in many ways. All that is lost for further generations of players, especially the young and up and coming ones.
The average amateur dropping out is a negligible loss chesswise. His loss is financial : one less entry fee to come in. That loss is easily made up for with just about anybody else willing to pay a membership card and entry fees. The strong ones dropping are much harder to be replaced. How is it possible to make up for LeSiege and Bluvshtein's losses ?

There is not one would be tournament player waiting to take the place of any player who drops out. Do you not get that chess participation has been in decline since the 1970's? Clubs that used to be huge and now tiny such as Hamilton. Do you also not get that sponsors want to reach a lot of people and get a lot of exposure? Do you also not get that the USSR system was successful because they had plenty of players at all levels? Just to reach a point of being able to play a reasonable game in a tournament is a fairly good accomplishment for people. Many players come out to clubs only to stop going because they find they are not ready to play in tournaments.

[Zeljko Kitich]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Hi Nikolay,

I am also unaware, that such words as "we" and "us", are only used by politicians. I hear these words everyday and seems to me everyone uses them. Can you please tell us, how you came to this conclusion. :p

P.S. Also, I seen your friend Mr. Ochkoos the other day and he seems to be under false impression, that I am attacking you! All I have being doing is replying to your post with answers, that is all. Can you please next time you see him, tell him the truth. Thanks.

Have a great day.

Mikhail

Mr Ochkoos is very perceptive. He can see when someone is constantly winding up and taking shots at other people.

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Politicians often use "we" and "us", but some of them have real supporters

Hi Nikolay,

I am also unaware, that such words as "we" and "us", are only used by politicians. I hear these words everyday and seems to me everyone uses them. Can you please tell us, how you came to this conclusion. :p

P.S. Also, I seen your friend Mr. Ochkoos the other day and he seems to be under false impression, that I am attacking you! All I have being doing is replying to your post with answers, that is all. Can you please next time you see him, tell him the truth. Thanks.

Have a great day.

Mikhail

[Mikhail Egorov]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Mikhail,

Politicians often use "we" and "us", but some of them have real supporters, so it makes the statement at least a little bit valid.
Could you tell us chesstalkers, who belongs to the group "we" and "us" you mention?

Nikolay

Hi Nikolay,

You are asking the wrong person here, since I am not a politician. In case you still wondering you should ask Mr. Gillanders, Mr. Barron,and other so call politicians here on chesstalk. They know more about, since they it and will be able to explain you in detail here. Hope they will be answer your interesting question. ;)

Good luck!

[Gary Ruben]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

I may try it though, see what interest there would be.

Give it a try. You are fulfilling the first rule of successful organizing. You're making sure players know who you are. It's important.

[Hugh Brodie]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

In Montreal, Steve Bolduc organized a few FIDE-rated round-robins a few years ago, and got some strong players to play. Unfortunately, he has moved to Trois-Rivieres in the meantime.

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Why don't you organize the kind of events you want? See how viable they are.

I used to organize what I wanted. I organized OTB. I also organized correspondence chess. One time I decided I wanted a big correspondence Canadian Open. I set a low entry fee, advertised it and ended up with just over 400 entrants from all over Canada. A few years later I organized another one that came in just under 300 entrants. One of the guys who writes here from time to time won that one.

Oh, I want to. I don't think it's even that hard to get organized here (from the chess side of things). I could probably convince the CEM (Montreal) to do it even.

The difficulty would be to convince enough players to take out a CFC membership as well.
I may try it though, see what interest there would be.

[Gary Ruben]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Why don't you organize the kind of events you want? See how viable they are.

I used to organize what I wanted. I organized OTB. I also organized correspondence chess. One time I decided I wanted a big correspondence Canadian Open. I set a low entry fee, advertised it and ended up with just over 400 entrants from all over Canada. A few years later I organized another one that came in just under 300 entrants. One of the guys who writes here from time to time won that one.

[Denton Cockburn]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Alex,

In some ways, a chess tournament is just like another business vying for the dollars that consumers spend on recreation. So from that perspective, I'm going to compare chess to men's recreational hockey.

Men's recreational hockey is divided into divisions -- A to DDD (A is pretty good. DDD is god awful.) Every player pays the same league fees. Each team gets a chance to win their division and win a prize (hockey merchandise in some leagues, a trip to the national championships in others). The winners of the A division get exactly the same prizes as the winners of the DDD division. Players in A level are often ex-pros. The DDD players have trouble skating.

Would it be a good business decision for the league (which is in the business of maximizing the number of players in the league and therefore profit) to say that the top players will get big prizes and the players in DDD will get little or nothing. I don't think so. If it was a brilliant idea to do so, I'm sure the business men who run these leagues would do so.

So why from a business perspective is it a good idea go with unequal prize distributions in chess? I just don't see it from a marketing perspective. You can tell the DDD players that they're crap and they don't deserve anything but they might just take their money elsewhere. There are lots of leagues that will take your $500 for 24 games.

It's not that I'm against elite level play. I very much support whatever the CFC can do to help out our best elite players and I wish it could do more. But when it comes down to the structure of a tournament that is trying to attract all ability levels, I think you have to be wary of making the mid- and low-level players feel not valued. From a business perspective, as an organizer all the players from elite to beginner are your customers.

Steve

This is actually pretty good, and I find myself agreeing with most of it. Let's create an addendum though.

I believe masters (and I am being generous there because I am one, really let's say FMs) are more akin to professional hockey players. If we didn't have professional hockey, recreational hockey probably wouldn't do that well. Now imagine if those DDD players were told they could go over to the next rink and oh, look, there's the Red Wings playing the Maple Leafs, and is that Ottawa getting spanked by Montreal in that other rink over there (not likely, but hey, gotta represent for Quebec). The Recreational Hockey association is now making an offer where for double my league fees, I get to have those professional games right there. What's that? They'll also let me bring my kids to watch those professionals play? and the pros will give me tips for improving my game? and tips for my kids too?

It's not all about money (that's the CFC's current problem). It's about improving the number and quality of chess players in Canada. Masters can in a strange way teach by osmosis, and advertise by osmosis. I'm looking for the time when I get to play Bator Sambuev, not because I think I'll win, but because I know the game alone will be worth the entry fee. I still remember playing a simul against Spraggett years ago (I got a draw), and even memories like those are worth $20 (better than buying myself 4 bottles of beer).

I don't believe in extorting class players. I think the fees for most tournaments are ridiculous and efforts should be made to provide cheaper ones ( I wish we had a national organization where this was a goal ). I just know that I need those elite players around to help make me a better player.

P.S. I had created the Windsor Chess League, with entry fees of $10 and groups of players within 200 points. The masters had the same fees, but at least they were guaranteed to only be facing other experts or masters.

[Steve Karpik]

Re: FIDE level chess in Canada

Hi Bob,

It's incomprehensible to me how so many weak players seem to legitimately believe they should be in contention for a "prize". Truth is, there's very little money in chess (playing). Professionals have to teach to make money off chess. Whatever little money exists in chess, in my opinion, should be to improve the quality of tournaments (which is beneficiary to all players) and then prizes to the top finishers, in the top section.
One interesting example I can think of are the Guelph tournaments. Hal only gives prizes to the top section, although I don't think lower sections subsidize the top section. However, bottle water, fruit, coffee, granola bars are provided. Many players seem to like this format enough and the "classes" don't seem to be suffering that much in participation. Winners in the lower classes get a neat trophy, a symbol of achievement amongst our weak peers, great!


Alex Ferreira

Alex,

In some ways, a chess tournament is just like another business vying for the dollars that consumers spend on recreation. So from that perspective, I'm going to compare chess to men's recreational hockey.

Men's recreational hockey is divided into divisions -- A to DDD (A is pretty good. DDD is god awful.) Every player pays the same league fees. Each team gets a chance to win their division and win a prize (hockey merchandise in some leagues, a trip to the national championships in others). The winners of the A division get exactly the same prizes as the winners of the DDD division. Players in A level are often ex-pros. The DDD players have trouble skating.

Would it be a good business decision for the league (which is in the business of maximizing the number of players in the league and therefore profit) to say that the top players will get big prizes and the players in DDD will get little or nothing. I don't think so. If it was a brilliant idea to do so, I'm sure the business men who run these leagues would do so.

So why from a business perspective is it a good idea go with unequal prize distributions in chess? I just don't see it from a marketing perspective. You can tell the DDD players that they're crap and they don't deserve anything but they might just take their money elsewhere. There are lots of leagues that will take your $500 for 24 games.

It's not that I'm against elite level play. I very much support whatever the CFC can do to help out our best elite players and I wish it could do more. But when it comes down to the structure of a tournament that is trying to attract all ability levels, I think you have to be wary of making the mid- and low-level players feel not valued. From a business perspective, as an organizer all the players from elite to beginner are your customers.

Steve