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Kevin Spraggett has an article up about the lack of participation of top FIDE players in tournaments (or about the lack of FIDE tournaments, either seems appropriate).
What do you believe to be the cause of these phenomenons and what possible solutions?
As usual, I think the high cost of participation makes the CFC unappealing for people who can't play 30+ games per year.
Secondly, I think the lack of affiliation between the CFC and FQE is also a big problem, as a lot of strong Quebec players will not travel that far to play games.
Third, There aren't many FIDE level tournaments. It would be nice to have at least 1 FIDE level tournament per week in the big provinces.
As explained in the other thread, the lack of FIDE tournaments in Quebec is the consequence of the separation of the CFC and the FQE. Actually, FIDE rating is probably the biggest consequence for Quebec. However, many surveys showed that most people prefered to have a healthy financial situation, more tournaments and more service instead of a FIDE rating. It is very sad for players who wish to have a FIDE rating, like I do, but we can't do much about it. Organizing FIDE rated tournaments costs a lot of money (FQE, CFC and FIDE rating fees + FQE and CFC membership), so not many organizers are not ready to pay for it. However, the FQE has made considerable efforts in promoting the organization of FIDE rating tournaments (even paying itself a part of the CFC membership card!). However, the fact is that many players are simply not ready to pay twice the entry fee to have a FIDE rating.
The only FIDE rated tournaments in Quebec are the most prestigious ones, such as the Quebec Open, the Montreal Open and the upcoming Canadian Closed.
For what is of the participation outside of Quebec, I can't really tell. I have always been interested into playing in Ontario, but I couldn't find a tournament where transportation was easy (coming by train or bus and finding a reasonnable hotel in walking distance from the tournament site).
Also, I guess that the best ways to attract masters is simply to have bigger prizes and better conditions. In Quebec, many tournaments are quite strong, with sometimes 2 grandmasters and a few IMs. Of course, it won't prevent some players (such as Lesiege) to stop playing.
It is frequently bemoaned that top players don't play anymore or under participate in tournaments.
In fact, strong players are over represented in almost any tournament compared to their percentage of the general chess playing population. And as the general chess population also has a turnover or drop out rate of the order of 30% a year, I have yet to see any data that shows top players are any worse than this.
Fact is, the top players are visilble and we have lists of them with participation and so anecdoteally people can see that a certain top player no longer is active and wonder why but no one is remembering all those 1600 players who don't play any more either.
As explained in the other thread, the lack of FIDE tournaments in Quebec is the consequence of the separation of the CFC and the FQE. Actually, FIDE rating is probably the biggest consequence for Quebec. However, many surveys showed that most people prefered to have a healthy financial situation, more tournaments and more service instead of a FIDE rating. It is very sad for players who wish to have a FIDE rating, like I do, but we can't do much about it. Organizing FIDE rated tournaments costs a lot of money (FQE, CFC and FIDE rating fees + FQE and CFC membership), so not many organizers are not ready to pay for it. However, the FQE has made considerable efforts in promoting the organization of FIDE rating tournaments (even paying itself a part of the CFC membership card!). However, the fact is that many players are simply not ready to pay twice the entry fee to have a FIDE rating.
The only FIDE rated tournaments in Quebec are the most prestigious ones, such as the Quebec Open, the Montreal Open and the upcoming Canadian Closed.
For what is of the participation outside of Quebec, I can't really tell. I have always been interested into playing in Ontario, but I couldn't find a tournament where transportation was easy (coming by train or bus and finding a reasonnable hotel in walking distance from the tournament site).
Also, I guess that the best ways to attract masters is simply to have bigger prizes and better conditions. In Quebec, many tournaments are quite strong, with sometimes 2 grandmasters and a few IMs. Of course, it won't prevent some players (such as Lesiege) to stop playing.
It would be nice to see the CFC move to a service organization instead of a membership organization.
Where in Quebec do you live? I'm planning to go to Ottawa for every FIDE tournament that they have up there. If you're in the Montreal area you can get a ride with me.
Unfortunately I can't do much for staying location, since I hang out at the wife's parents' house.
It is frequently bemoaned that top players don't play anymore or under participate in tournaments.
In fact, strong players are over represented in almost any tournament compared to their percentage of the general chess playing population. And as the general chess population also has a turnover or drop out rate of the order of 30% a year, I have yet to see any data that shows top players are any worse than this.
Fact is, the top players are visilble and we have lists of them with participation and so anecdoteally people can see that a certain top player no longer is active and wonder why but no one is remembering all those 1600 players who don't play any more either.
I bemoan the absence of such players as well.
I wish there was more effort to make chess inclusive for people that play occasionally, as well as poor people that would like to play. Chess is seeming like a game that is outside the financial reach of many.
Cost of participation has little or nothing to do with Spraggett's list - most tourneys give GM/IM players free or discounted entries.
I don't see how lack of affiliation between FQE/CFC has anything to do with it either; the two organizations affiliating doesn't make the distance from Toronto to Montreal any shorter.
Your last point is the only one - it's just a lack of well funded FIDE tournaments, and that's simply due to circumstances. If top players wanted to play 5 game weekend swisses funded by entry fees, I'm sure organizers would do them. If organizers created one game a day tournaments with substantial prize funds, I'm sure top players would play. Neither of those is realistic on a regular basis, so you are left with the situation we have.
further to my point - see the graph below which plots the percentage of active players in 2006 who were active in 2010.9 to 2011.9 by rating. Fairly clearly, the problem is NOT that stronger players are preferentially dropping out.
All my chess life, people have been worrying about why the strong players drop out. It's not the problem.
If organizers created one game a day tournaments with substantial prize funds, I'm sure top players would play. Neither of those is realistic on a regular basis, so you are left with the situation we have.
Hi David:
Seems you are right - Look at last year's Toronto Closed ( this year, the tournament is so wobbly that GTCL doesn't even have a bid for the 2012 tournament as far as I've heard ). The Championship section is an 8-player round robin over 7 consective weekends ( not sure but I think it was played on Sunday afternoons ). I believe the prize fund is quite modest:
2011 Toronto Closed Ch
Date Director Region Type
2011-04-03 Vladimir Birarov ON R
# Player Old Perf New High Results Total
1 Plotkin, Victor 2403 2475 2422 2436 X = 1 1 = 1 0 1 5.0
2 Kleinman, Michael 2246 2440 2279 2299 = X 0 = 1 = 1 1 4.5
3 Sapozhnikov, Roman 2459 2353 2443 2477 0 1 X 0 = 1 = 1 4.0
4 Birarov, Vladimir 2257 2325 2267 2267 0 = 1 X 1 = 0 = 3.5
5 Guo, Josh 2263 2324 2272 2272 = 0 = 0 X = 1 1 3.5
6 Aronov, Yuri 2313 2317 2313 2320 0 = 0 = = X 1 1 3.5
7 Barron, Michael 2340 2256 2328 2377 1 0 = 1 0 0 X = 3.0
8 Moffat, Andrei 2248 2040 2220 2321 0 0 0 = 0 0 = X 1.0
5/8 players over 2300, which is not too shabby. But in Toronto, one would hope for much better.
Here are the potential top players ( from the 2012 top Ontario list, active in the last five years ):
1 Noritsyn, Nikolay Richmond Hill, ON 2661 2012-02-20
2 Bluvshtein, Mark Toronto, ON 2632 2011-07-17
3 Gerzhoy, Leonid Toronto, ON 2592 2011-12-18
4 Samsonkin, Artiom Toronto, ON 2568 2012-02-20
6 Sapozhnikov, Roman Richmond Hill, ON 2528 2012-02-20
7 Zugic, Igor Toronto, ON 2516 2008-09-02
8 Thavandiran, Shiyam Toronto, ON 2501 2012-01-15
11 Teplitsky, Yan Markham, ON 2473 2010-09-06
12 Quan, Zhe Richmond Hill, ON 2462 2009-07-19
13 Tayar, Jonathan Toronto, ON 2462 2011-09-05
15 Cummings, David Toronto, ON 2439 2012-01-23
17 Kleinman, Michael Toronto, ON 2415 2012-02-20
18 Hambleton, Aman Toronto, ON 2414 2012-02-20
19 Livshits, Ron Pickering, ON 2412 2009-08-16
20 Martchenko, Alexander Etobicoke, ON 2412 2011-07-30
Now some of these are university students away from Toronto for school, and would not be able to attend a regular Toronto weekly tournament. And maybe a few have weekend commitments that would prevent them playing, and a few are semi-retired at least. But all are over 2400! GTCL only attracted 2 from this list: Roman Sapozhnikov and Michael Kleinman ( who wouldn't have been on the list last year ). So obviously top players don't play if there is no money. So much for attempting strong-player FIDE tournaments on a shoe-string.
All my chess life, people have been worrying about why the strong players drop out. It's not the problem.
You fail to grasp that a high rated player dropping out of chess is a big loss for the community, especially if he writes, teaches and shares his knowledge and experience in many ways. All that is lost for further generations of players, especially the young and up and coming ones.
The average amateur dropping out is a negligible loss chesswise. His loss is financial : one less entry fee to come in. That loss is easily made up for with just about anybody else willing to pay a membership card and entry fees. The strong ones dropping are much harder to be replaced. How is it possible to make up for LeSiege and Bluvshtein's losses ?
Getting old! No memory anymore ... and I as GTCL Bd. member voted re this bid! - lucky if I can find my way to Scarborough CC tonight!
But the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The ChessTalk post was Feb. 13 ( about 3 weeks now ). The tournament starts March 26 - I think ( on 7 consecutive Monday nights this year ).
Is there a pre-registration list that can be published NOW - are the top Toronto players rushing to sign up?? What is the first prize this year ( based on how many entries in the Championship and Reserves )? Will it be high enough to attract the money players?
Seems you are right - Look at last year's Toronto Closed ( this year, the tournament is so wobbly that GTCL doesn't even have a bid for the 2012 tournament as far as I've heard ). The Championship section is an 8-player round robin over 7 consective weekends ( not sure but I think it was played on Sunday afternoons ). I believe the prize fund is quite modest:
2011 Toronto Closed Ch
Date Director Region Type
2011-04-03 Vladimir Birarov ON R
# Player Old Perf New High Results Total
1 Plotkin, Victor 2403 2475 2422 2436 X = 1 1 = 1 0 1 5.0
2 Kleinman, Michael 2246 2440 2279 2299 = X 0 = 1 = 1 1 4.5
3 Sapozhnikov, Roman 2459 2353 2443 2477 0 1 X 0 = 1 = 1 4.0
4 Birarov, Vladimir 2257 2325 2267 2267 0 = 1 X 1 = 0 = 3.5
5 Guo, Josh 2263 2324 2272 2272 = 0 = 0 X = 1 1 3.5
6 Aronov, Yuri 2313 2317 2313 2320 0 = 0 = = X 1 1 3.5
7 Barron, Michael 2340 2256 2328 2377 1 0 = 1 0 0 X = 3.0
8 Moffat, Andrei 2248 2040 2220 2321 0 0 0 = 0 0 = X 1.0
5/8 players over 2300, which is not too shabby. But in Toronto, one would hope for much better.
Here are the potential top players ( from the 2012 top Ontario list, active in the last five years ):
1 Noritsyn, Nikolay Richmond Hill, ON 2661 2012-02-20
2 Bluvshtein, Mark Toronto, ON 2632 2011-07-17
3 Gerzhoy, Leonid Toronto, ON 2592 2011-12-18
4 Samsonkin, Artiom Toronto, ON 2568 2012-02-20
6 Sapozhnikov, Roman Richmond Hill, ON 2528 2012-02-20
7 Zugic, Igor Toronto, ON 2516 2008-09-02
8 Thavandiran, Shiyam Toronto, ON 2501 2012-01-15
11 Teplitsky, Yan Markham, ON 2473 2010-09-06
12 Quan, Zhe Richmond Hill, ON 2462 2009-07-19
13 Tayar, Jonathan Toronto, ON 2462 2011-09-05
15 Cummings, David Toronto, ON 2439 2012-01-23
17 Kleinman, Michael Toronto, ON 2415 2012-02-20
18 Hambleton, Aman Toronto, ON 2414 2012-02-20
19 Livshits, Ron Pickering, ON 2412 2009-08-16
20 Martchenko, Alexander Etobicoke, ON 2412 2011-07-30
Now some of these are university students away from Toronto for school, and would not be able to attend a regular Toronto weekly tournament. And maybe a few have weekend commitments that would prevent them playing, and a few are semi-retired at least. But all are over 2400! GTCL only attracted 2 from this list: Roman Sapozhnikov and Michael Kleinman ( who wouldn't have been on the list last year ). So obviously top players don't play if there is no money. So much for attempting strong-player FIDE tournaments on a shoe-string.
Bob A.
I can't speak for anyone else here, but personally I looked at the proposed tournament for a brief moment. What turned me off from attending was
1) 1 game a week?... I can't come to toronto for 7 straight weeks just to play chess on a sunday afternoon - I have classes on monday and I would not be mentally prepared to play at my best
2) I think there was some kind of an entree for this which came out to the prize fund. I didn't think it was worth the travel expense to win some small prize fund when I'm not even the clear favorite
3) When I play a weekend tournament, it's not just about the chess - I also like hanging out with the hart house crowd and socializing. Pure chess is too intense and there's no point being all that serious when I'm not a 2600 GM
There are many FIDE rated tournaments in Alberta and some local players are getting very strong. Richard Wang might be the best talent that I have ever seen come out of Alberta. Eric Hansen is the only other player that is close. We also have strong players like Edward Porper, Vlad Pechenkin and masters like Alex Yam and Dan Kazmaier are still improving.
I like how some players love criticizing the few chess organizer's there are in the country while they themselves couldn't be bothered to do anything for chess in the country. Spraggett should be ashamed of himself for talking an enormous amount of trash without doing anything to change the situation. Instead he writes posts for his moronic blog bemoaning the conditions as if it is a realistic expectation for organizer's to show up at his door step with big bags of money begging him to play in their tournament.
Here's the reality of the situation, some strong players love complaining about the the lack of strong tournaments, fundraising, sponsors in chess and so forth, and these same people almost never help organize a tournament or attract sponsors. This may be a revolutionary idea, but maybe professional chess players have to work hard (same as any other profession) in order to make money. I'm not talking about just playing chess, but also about educating, organizing tournaments and attracting sponsors. I'm sorry if they feel that their chosen profession is so intrinsically valuable that people should be lining up at their door to pay them to play, however the reality is that this will never happen. If complaining on the internet could change anything this world wouldn't have problems.
I like how some players love criticizing the few chess organizer's there are in the country while they themselves couldn't be bothered to do anything for chess in the country. Spraggett should be ashamed of himself for talking an enormous amount of trash without doing anything to change the situation. Instead he writes posts for his moronic blog bemoaning the conditions as if it is a realistic expectation for organizer's to show up at his door step with big bags of money begging him to play in their tournament.
No point in taking it out on the messenger.
He merely put Canadian Chess on the international map with his hgh placings, consistency and dedication to the game. I don't think it's too much for him to request chess be kept on that level.
There are many FIDE rated tournaments in Alberta and some local players are getting very strong. Richard Wang might be the best talent that I have ever seen come out of Alberta. Eric Hansen is the only other player that is close. We also have strong players like Edward Porper, Vlad Pechenkin and masters like Alex Yam and Dan Kazmaier are still improving.
I like how some players love criticizing the few chess organizer's there are in the country while they themselves couldn't be bothered to do anything for chess in the country. Spraggett should be ashamed of himself for talking an enormous amount of trash without doing anything to change the situation. Instead he writes posts for his moronic blog bemoaning the conditions as if it is a realistic expectation for organizer's to show up at his door step with big bags of money begging him to play in their tournament.
Here's the reality of the situation, some strong players love complaining about the the lack of strong tournaments, fundraising, sponsors in chess and so forth, and these same people almost never help organize a tournament or attract sponsors. This may be a revolutionary idea, but maybe professional chess players have to work hard (same as any other profession) in order to make money. I'm not talking about just playing chess, but also about educating, organizing tournaments and attracting sponsors. I'm sorry if they feel that their chosen profession is so intrinsically valuable that people should be lining up at their door to pay them to play, however the reality is that this will never happen. If complaining on the internet could change anything this world wouldn't have problems.
Easy to talk if you are not a GM... Chess in Canada, atleast to my opinion, seems getting worse each year. Only one open a year that can be called professional: Quebec open (good conditions, nice playing hall, good prizes, excellent norm opportunities, fide rated) which of course is not enough to make a living just by playing. But at the same time I understand that not much can be expected if most of the organizers haven't any support by the national federation or the gouverment.
The only way a professional could try to make a living by playing is Europe, but the flight tickets hurt a lot.
So there really shouldn't be much surprise... even I don't have any ambitions anymore and have to offer lessons to try to compensate at least a bit all the time and hard work spent to become a GM.
So of course there can't be really strong and ambitious chess players in a country where 90% of the tournaments have no guaranteed prizes, no descent conditions for titled players and are not rated fide.
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