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It's not enough to have the lowest tuition in North America and has some of the best universities in North America. No let's put that aside and commit random acts of violence and delay our own graduation.
I wonder if it's a language thing? Specifically, because Quebec students speak French are they more culturally connected to France than North America? France has a tremendous history of social democracy and violent protest.
Today I tried to assist to my classes, with the help of an injunction. Even though the judge had specially asked the students not to prevent us from going to our classes, there were hundreds of them trying to prevent us. 50 policemen tried to make us enter in, but sadly they were outnumbered and had to give up...
The students on strike once again showed an incredible lack of maturity. They were insulting us, and even trying to harm us at some point. All this for tuition fees of 2500$... This is ridiculous.
At one point, I was giving a live interview and professors from the UQAM (Université du Québec à Montréal) came in and insulted us in front of the camera! As the numerous journalists said, they had rarely seen civilized students before us...
We also went to a TV show this morning. We brought several letters we had received from student and teachers. One letter in particular, from a philosophy teacher to one of the students who wanted to assist to his classes, was quite shocking. The teacher said that she would never teach to such a socialy rejected kid and that he was giving her nausea.
It would be also good to mention that yesterday we had a vote to come back in class. 62% of the students were in favor of a vote for coming back, but our student association decided to reject it, so we are still on strike.
There's nothing we can do against our association, which is heavily supported by unions. They are the one organizing the votes, they are the one that advertize it, and of course, they are the ones that count the votes (raised hands, since secret vote is forbidden).
It's just a matter of time before I lose my semester, and thousands of dollars in scholarships.
I truly feel sorry for you and the other students who are mature and socially responsible enough to understand that higher education is a privilege and not an automatic entitlement. This is understood very well in most countries, but despite the fact that Quebec has the lowest tuition fees in North America, and some of the best universities, some students insist on getting a largely free ride.
I am sure that a lot of the students protesting probably have a $400 cell phone in their pockets and would't think twice about spending a couple of bucks for a coffee, not to mention the money spent on clubbing. Yet, when it comes to investing an additional $1 /day for 3 years or so, to improve their future, they throw up their hands and take to the streets.
I am convinced that this is not really about the money, and I agree with you that the unions are behind a lot of the problems. They know full well that they are next in line for a dose of reality. The gravy train has stopped in many developed countries and the culture of entitlement will have to change.
It would be nice to see the 62% of the students who voted to go back to class also demonstrate and be heard. In this province, however, we seem to always give more attention to small special interest groups that shout the loudest and not to the silent majority. Hopefully democracy and justice will prevail, otherwise the future will be very uncertain.
All the best to you. P.S. (come by the McGill open if you have some time).
I wonder if it's a language thing? Specifically, because Quebec students speak French are they more culturally connected to France than North America? France has a tremendous history of social democracy and violent protest.
I'm in France right now on university exchange. Everyone here remarks to me that they cannot understand the French spoken in Quebec. Including our French teacher. One of the exchange students here who went on exchange to Quebec took 2 weeks to finally be able to understand the language. So I'm not sure how much of a cultural connection there is. In any case they do not exactly speak the same langauge.
I'm in France right now on university exchange. Everyone here remarks to me that they cannot understand the French spoken in Quebec. Including our French teacher. One of the exchange students here who went on exchange to Quebec took 2 weeks to finally be able to understand the language. So I'm not sure how much of a cultural connection there is. In any case they do not exactly speak the same langauge.
I have always heard that viewpoint as well, but I think it is somewhat like an American saying they don't understand someone from London England... (or vice-versa). There are a lot of subtle differences in language from rural Quebec to Quebec City to Montreal - many of those subtle differences are the result of vastly different exposure to various types of media. Of course, the use of slang or local customs makes it even more varied.
They speak English in Newfoundland and Scotland, but one might never know it is English (at first).
People living in Canada who have French as their first language would be more likely to identify with France than with Ontario... politics aside, the language is more of a close fit.
I wonder if Francophones in Quebec feel the same: do they have any problems understanding people from (say) Paris? What about french speaking Belgians?! or Swiss?
I have always heard that viewpoint as well, but I think it is somewhat like an American saying they don't understand someone from London England... (or vice-versa). There are a lot of subtle differences in language from rural Quebec to Quebec City to Montreal - many of those subtle differences are the result of vastly different exposure to various types of media. Of course, the use of slang or local customs makes it even more varied.
They speak English in Newfoundland and Scotland, but one might never know it is English (at first).
People living in Canada who have French as their first language would be more likely to identify with France than with Ontario... politics aside, the language is more of a close fit.
I wonder if Francophones in Quebec feel the same: do they have any problems understanding people from (say) Paris? What about french speaking Belgians?! or Swiss?
I've been to London twice now and had no problems at all understanding the Brits. I think the better comparison might be English as spoken in northern England, say in Yorkshire. I've heard people interviewed on tv from Yorkshire and they might as well have been speaking another language.
As part of French class we had to present a movie from our country. I presented Mon Oncle Antoinne. The French teacher, who is a lovely fellow, wanted to hear some of the movie. He listened but couldn't understand a word. He told us about a tape on youtube that was a couple from Quebec going into a store in Paris and being upset when the store clerk could not understand their French.
That said the French here do have warm and fraternal regards for French Canadians. There are two students here from Quebec that I travelled with and all the French instantly like them. Any time I discuss Canada I can easily tell the French attitude to Quebec is special.
I also have to say the famous French arrogance is a myth I think. I have experienced exactly the opposite. Also the famous the French will not que up stories. Totally untrue.
There was a finance professor here from Belgium. I was the only interational student in that particular class and long story short told the professor that it was okay for her to teach in French and that I would follow along. The French students had no problem with her French except it seems that some of the numbers are different in Belgian French.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 1st May, 2012, 02:24 PM.
Random violence directed at random property and which illegaly removes the rights of students who do want to attend classes, does not meet the definition of riot to you. Whereas uprising does in a much more accurate way? So do you prefer to refer to the Vancouver city uprising? I know you are a retired lawyer but I didn't know that means you prefer to use terms that sugar coat violence in the streets. In any case thanks for posting an artice that makes my case for me, namely that the same minds that brought you OWS are now bringing you violence in the streets of Quebec over a cost of $325/year. I too am a student right now and I too pay tuition. I however do not expect education to be free because I fully expect to make use of my degree to earn a living in the future. Looking back on it do you feel that you should not have paid any tuition in law school. Even though you made a living with your degree all those years? In the same way that I feel it is fair for me to contribute to my own pension either by making contributions to CPP or my own pension plan/RSP's and not demand that the state provide me with a pension without any contributions from me.
Since it is typically the middle class that goes on to university and not the poorest of the poor, who are not well represented in our higher educational institutions, this all still seems to me about protecting middle class privelege. It is not about the 99%, it is about the middle 25%. Most student debt is not related to tuition costs especially at Quebec rates but is related to the basic cost of living for the 4 years required for a Bachelor. It can be reduced with parental support by living at home or otherwise and it can also be reduced by working in the summer at any kind of job. The government usually sets up programs to help students get summer jobs, be they directly with local, provincial or federal government or other programs to find summer employment. At the graduate level there is financial support offered by the universities themselves and also for TA work. If someone lives in Montreal or Quebec there is really no need to leave home to attend university as they have great universities right there.
Whereas your use of uprising is not accurate on the point that it does not have sufficient 'popular' support among the Quebec population or among students as a whole to be an accurate definition. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...0&t=1335899182
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 1st May, 2012, 03:21 PM.
Would you consider the " Quebec Spring " more accurate?
Bob
In order to allign it ideologicallly with the Arab spring? Is your opinion of the Quebec government so low that you liken it to a totalitarian regime? I think we must be living in different countries. Well right now we are because I'm living in France, but even when I'm back in Canada I don't consider any Canadian government to be a despotic, corrupt, totalitarian regime that deserves the term Quebec Spring.
In order to have a 'spring' you need a bad long dark oppressive winter first and Egypt and Syria meet that criteria. In order to conflate the two you need to consider that Syria and Egypt shot their own citizens down in the street and Syria in fact still is. Do you think we should call in NATO to bomb the Quebec government? That's the sort of thing you would do for a Quebec spring.
In order to negotiate you would need to have control over the rioters. So either these groups that are negotiating do have control which I doubt or they are simply negotiating in bad faith because they know that they have no way of effectively calling off the violence.
You can negotiate with a group like Sinn Fein because you know they speak for the IRA but you cannot negotiate with groups that have no clear command and control of those creating the violence. I am willing to bet that a good deal of those that are are not even students. They are the usual OWS suspects that simply want to create violence for their own ideological reasons that have nothing to do with tuition fees.
In other words these student groups could reach a deal with the government, call off the protests and absolutely nothing would change in the streets.
For example the FLQ had to be deat with through the War Measures Act. No amount of negotiation with the PQ would have stopped the FLQ because the PQ did not have control over the FLQ.
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 1st May, 2012, 03:34 PM.
1. Point taken - the Quebec Liberal Government is simply misguided, and the students of Quebec, supported by some other segments of society ( look at the size of the recent " demonstration " [ not riot ] ), are trying to educate it to the right direction;
2. Most people in the streets on the night you call the " riot " were legally and civilly demonstrating - still a right both in Canada and Quebec ( unlike, as you point out, has been the case in some other countries, where demonstration was met by state violence ).
3. Some students allege that the police overstepped the bounds of " control " against legitimate " demonstrators ".
4. A small segment of the demonstration were exercising " peaceful civil disobedience " - they should fully expect the police to deal with " illegality " with " proportionate force ", given the nature of the illegality ( removal without violence of a limp body illegally occupying space by peacefully lying down, with no weapons ).
5. There were a small group of vandals who used the demonstration to pursue their goals of destruction of property ( I am not aware of violence towards individuals, though I believe things may have been thrown at some police ). These also have to expect arrest by the police, doing their job. The mainstream media seize on the " newsworthy " part of the demonstration, and tar the whole demonstration as a " riot ". What political goal were the Vancouver riots trying to further - those were " riots ".
1. Point taken - the Quebec Liberal Government is simply misguided, and the students of Quebec, supported by some other segments of society ( look at the size of the recent " demonstration " [ not riot ] ), are trying to educate it to the right direction;
2. Most people in the streets on the night you call the " riot " were legally and civilly demonstrating - still a right both in Canada and Quebec ( unlike, as you point out, has been the case in some other countries, where demonstration was met by state violence ).
3. Some students allege that the police overstepped the bounds of " control " against legitimate " demonstrators ".
4. A small segment of the demonstration were exercising " peaceful civil disobedience " - they should fully expect the police to deal with " illegality " with " proportionate force ", given the nature of the illegality ( removal without violence of a limp body illegally occupying space by peacefully lying down, with no weapons ).
5. There were a small group of vandals who used the demonstration to pursue their goals of destruction of property ( I am not aware of violence towards individuals, though I believe things may have been thrown at some police ). These also have to expect arrest by the police, doing their job. The mainstream media seize on the " newsworthy " part of the demonstration, and tar the whole demonstration as a " riot ". What political goal were the Vancouver riots trying to further - those were " riots ".
No the Quebec government is not misguided, they are trying to properly and legally deal with fiscal shortfalls most governments are facing these days. It is the students who want to bury their heads in the sand and ignore fiscal reality that are misguided. I know as a retired lawyer your main interest is the law and rights and semantics but maybe keep in mind that fiscal issues are just as real. Not as sexy maybe but just as important.
With all your talk of what is legal and illegal please do remember that what is passed by the Quebec government is legal unless it is proven otherwise in court. I think you would have a hard time suggesting that a court would find the Quebec legislation raising tuition fees to be uncontitutional. Nor do I think do the majority of Quebecers oppose it. If they do they have the opportunity to vote this government out of office and replace it with a government that will make tuition free.
Most people at the Vancouver riots were just enjoying the game and did not commit any violence. That does not mean that there was not a riot that night that the minority instigated.
So for you the definition of riot is violence without a political end? That's not the definition the dictionary supports. For example when Tamil Canadians were blocking roads in Toronto you felt it was okay because their goal was political?
So for you violence directed at police officers is okay because they are the police? When you have general mayhem and destruction there is no way to suggest it is not directed at individuals or that it somehow excludes any violence to individuals. I think you are giving the mob too much credit for being able to direct their violence only at property and police (which you do not regard as non-property violence?) and not at non-police. I think you may want to remember that riots get out of control pretty fast. I know lawyers do not like the police at all but I thought they could recognize violence when they saw it. I thought that the Vancouver riots at the very least would have shown us all how fast things spiral out of control and how much violence ordinary people are capable of carrying out. This does not change simply because their aim can be defined as political.
So given that numbers may not be your forte, what numbers do you have to back up your suggestion that it was a 'small' segment? Keeping in mind that the FLQ were also a small segment. I'm concerned about violence in the streets not with a numbers game about how many are behind it.
but okay I'll meet you half way and instead of using the term riot I am happy to use the term mob violence...
Last edited by Zeljko Kitich; Tuesday, 1st May, 2012, 04:33 PM.
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